Monday, January 28, 2008

Shas Council's Decision

The following is a translation of the recent decision by the Shas Council of Torah Sages, as posted on Shas's website:

The Council of Torah Sages in its meeting today 21 Shevat 5768 has decided:

1) At the moment that they [YY - the government and the Palestinians] will start to speak about Yerushalayim, the Shas Movement will immediately leave the government. The Council of Torah Sages requests with this from the chairman of the movement to follow this closely, and to report such immediately to the Council of Torah Sages.

2) The Council of Torah Sages maintains that one cannot speak about peace agreements or lead negotiations before terror completely stops, and is accepted as [having stopped] by all.

3) The Council of Torah Sages requests from the Jewish people to stand in prayer before Our Father in Heaven that He should guard the People of Israel from all evil, and we should reach true peace with the coming of our righteous Mashiah, speedily, in our days, Amen.


At Tue Jan 29, 02:57:00 AM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

אל תירא ואל תיחת כי עמך אני
אל תירא ואל תיחת כי עמך אני

At Tue Jan 29, 04:40:00 AM 2008, Blogger Rafi G said...

amen! Let us hope if anything good comes of it is that the discussions should be delayed long enough to let everything else fall apart first

At Tue Jan 29, 09:40:00 AM 2008, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous, thanks for the link, but that doesn't worry me.
Think of it as a test in Emunat Hachamim. I passed. Did you?

At Tue Jan 29, 11:44:00 AM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The real test here is regarding the truth. You failed it again.

At Tue Jan 29, 01:52:00 PM 2008, Blogger yaak said...

The truth is too cloudy for us simple-folk to figure out ourselves. This is why we learn the truth from our Torah leaders, אשר מפיהם אנו חיים. I therefore passed the truth test as well.
You may have a Torah leader that you follow. That's fine. I have mine. Accept it and move on.

At Tue Jan 29, 06:43:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is not so simple. You will see soon, I trust, because this story has not finished.

But I wish you to reflect already now. To remove the cloudiness and see more of the truth. Do you accept from your Rav that we can divide the Land as long as we keep Yerushalayim? Do you understand from your Rav what is the halachic difference between dividing the rest of the Land and dividing Yerushalayim?

At Tue Jan 29, 07:20:00 PM 2008, Blogger yaak said...

First of all, look here:

To answer your questions:
Rav Ovadia holds that one can give up parts of E"Y for a true and lasting peace. He has said often that the leadership in the PA now is not someone we can trust, so I don't believe that he'll agree to any territorial concessions with the leadership that the PA has currently unless drastic changes are made.
Do I agree with the ruling in general? I know that it was made with sound halachic knowledge - that's all I can tell you. I would cry a bitter cry if it were ever put into practice.

At Tue Jan 29, 09:25:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why would you cry a bitter cry? If it is Torah it is good, no?

Are you saying that your heart protests at what you head is saying? If so, your heart is right. Not only will you cry a bitter cry, the world will be destroyed, Chalila. VeHamevin Yavin.

If Olmert's office and the Shas office give different accounts of the same event, I do not know who to believe. Both offices are centers of scheming, devoid of any truthfulness. Unfortunately, I know what I am saying.

At Tue Jan 29, 09:30:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

> To answer your questions:

You answered only one. What about the difference between Yerushalayim and the rest of the Land?

At Tue Jan 29, 11:29:00 PM 2008, Blogger גילוי said...

There is obviously no difference in the mitzvot lo ta'aseh of "Lo techoneim" and "lo yeishvu b'artzecha" in Yerushalayim as opposed to the rest of Eretz Yisrael. If we are to nullify these mitzvot for the argument of Pikuach Nefesh which doesn't apply to mitzvot of war, how can we, in a blanket fashion, apply the rule of Emunat Chachamim? The Gemara says only if they tell you what is right is right and left is left, and even that is only regarding the Sanhedrin of 71...

So even what we give a sigh of relief "at least they'll quit regarding Yerushalayim", our relief would be from a similar root as that of Yisrael Beiteinu leaving the government: it is not because of Torah.

At Wed Jan 30, 12:48:00 AM 2008, Blogger yaak said...

Yes, it would be something like that - my head vs. my heart. I'm not Meivin your statement of "the world will be destroyed".
The difference re: Yerushalayim is that if Yerushalayim is handed over, there is no chance of security - and 70+% of the country agrees to this. Other parts of the country is more debatable, but I very much doubt Rav Ovadia would want to give up those areas - only in the absolute necessity of a lasting agreement of Shalom. Right now, he's holding out for money for Torah institutions. Would this be my choice if I were in his position? No. The council, though, thinks so. They have a lot of considerations, such as supporting Kollel families, Torah institutions, and such. I hope and pray they are making the right decision.

It is because of Torah. Rav Ovadia has his Psak. If he would agree that it's Sakanat Nefashot to stay in the govt, he would leave the govt immediately. Thus, the psak re: Yerushalayim. He apparently holds in not Sakanat Nefashot regarding the rest of the country. As I said before, it's debatable - at least more so than with Yerushalayim.
Emunat Hachamim applies to all facets of life. This is not a left-left right-right situation. It's more of a gray-area than the Mafdalnikim make it out to be.

Again, to summarize, my personal feeling is that Shas should get out. Rav Ovadia has his reasons to stay in at this point based on Torah. To say that it's not based on Torah is simply not true.

At Wed Jan 30, 01:50:00 AM 2008, Blogger גילוי said...

When dealing with sakanat nefashot, he would definitely need to consult with a security authority. Do you know of one such authority that really believes that Kfar Sabba would be safe with a withdrawal from the Shomron, but davka not Yerushalayim? You know as well as I do that the din of all these places is equal, and that Torah is not determined by opinion polls (i.e. that 70% of the public says something is irrelevant for deciding).

There is a spiritual reason that makes it all moot. It's a catch-22, sort of. The reason that it is unsafe from a security standpoint to withdraw is because it is assur. And vice versa.

It most certainly is left left and right right, and my sources are not mizrachi. I davka have a halachic paper on the situation written in 5765 by a Chareidi Ra"M from the Old City. It was handed out at Tefillat Od Yosef Chai (see Kol HaTor) at Pitcha D'Karta (see also Kol HaTor) in the weeks leading up to the Geirush.

We understand that you want Shas to quit the government. What we want you to understand is that your desire is in line with the Truth and the Torah, for they are one.

At Wed Jan 30, 10:19:00 AM 2008, Blogger yaak said...

You are correct about opinion polls. I only used the opinion poll as a hizuk ledavar - not a proof.
Rav Ovadia obviously holds it's not Assur. That is a point of disagreement.
I am aware of other hareidi rabbis holding this way. It's not necessary divided along Mizrahi/hareidi lines.
Yes, the Truth and Torah are one. However, Mahlokot are not new to Torah, and I want you to understand this is one that's Leshaim Shamayim - both sides have valid points. It's OK to argue for one way or the other. It's not OK to totally negate the viewpoint of the other - since the opinion has a Yesod BeHarerei Kodesh.

At Sun Feb 10, 03:55:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At Mon Feb 11, 11:52:00 AM 2008, Blogger yaak said...

The comments here are now closed.


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