Tuesday, February 25, 2014

Rav Amar on the Draft Law

Translated from here:

The Rishon Letzion the Gaon Rav Shelomo Moshe Amar went out on the attack against the government's policy against learners of the holy Torah and their categorization as criminal transgressors with the passing of the clause that called for criminal sanctions, and said that the heads of the state are destroying the nation and the land.

In a Shiur that he gave over in a Beit Midrash in Yerushalayim, he attacked the authors of the law and said, "It's a shame for those who think to raise their hands against the holy Torah. They're only hurting themselves. They cannot hurt the Torah world."

Regarding reports that the authors of the law are directing their guns at the Sephardic public, the rav said, "All kinds of rumors are spread. They say, 'Maybe it won't go with the Ashkenazim - maybe the Sepharadim.' What do they think? That this is a custom of various communities? That this is their mentality? What do they think? That the Torah is a game? That it is a piece of clothing to wear? Torah is Torah!

"Our fathers and fathers' fathers gave up their lives for Torah - in poverty, in troubles, during decrees - our fathers who stood in all the sufferings and in all the untimely deaths - who could stand in such a thing? But they stood strong and gave up their souls to sanctify Hashem's name, and the Torah never ceased from them ever," added Rav Amar.

Rav Amar added and said, "Nothing in the world will help. They're coming with this provocation...with these denunciations...against Torah learners. They changed Torah learners into as if they were enemies of the people, G-d forbid. Is there any stupidity greater than this?"

In the continuation of the Shiur, Rav Shelomo Amar categorized the Haredim who are Yeshiva students, but in actuality are not so, and said that they should be drafted: "They have a status of a Rodef."

Rav Amar blamed Netanyahu and Lapid: "They want to tear the nation apart - to divide us. Is this the wisdom of leaders? This is a leader?! That he goes to tear apart his nation?! To cause divisions between one community and other?!"

Rav Amar, who was strong in his words, during the Shiur, once more attacked the leadership of the state, led by Netanyahu, Lapid, and Bennett, "They are destroying the world, destroying the nation, destroying the state, and destroying the land. They're cutting off the branch that the whole world stands upon. This is not a game."


At Tue Feb 25, 12:31:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...


1:7 And he said unto them: 'What manner of man was he that came up to meet you, and told you these words?'

1:8 And they answered him: 'He was a hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins.' And he said: 'It is Elijah the Tishbite.'

1:9 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him; and, behold, he sat on the top of the hill. And he spoke unto him: `O man of God, the king hath said: Come down.'

1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty: 'If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty.' And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

1:11 And again he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him: 'O man of God, thus hath the king said: Come down quickly.'

1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them: 'If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty.' And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

1:13 And again he sent the captain of a third fifty with his fifty.

How many more times?

At Tue Feb 25, 12:42:00 PM 2014, Blogger Devash said...

"Netanyahu, Lapid, and Bennett"

Mamash Lavan! In cohoots with the Beit Lavan of Edom!

People need to focus and not be misled down the rabbit trail of whether and how many yeshiva students need to serve and under what conditions are appropriate.


The Erev Rav are trying to strip what is left of the Jewish state away and make it into a US-style "democracy." This is a war between Yaakov and Lavan!! Don't be misled!!

At Tue Feb 25, 04:36:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Devash , previous post said it sucienctely ! the mixed multitude is in bed with lavan of edom . as for shalom amar , I disagree respectfully ! The gra says edom joining the mixed multitude has the coach to destroy the world , I guess he meant nucleur anielation . We better wake up fast , this isn't a joke , but we are in a daze . As David says in tehillim "its time to put aside the Torah and act for Our Lord God Of Israel "!

At Tue Feb 25, 11:39:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I understand the comments about the secular and Erevan rav trying to seclarize the char radium. But, can someone respond to this question....how would chassidim defend full time learning for all instead of the army to rav kook and rav nachman kahana? What would be your debate points? This is the part I don't get -as a "black hat yeshivaish mother" living in eretz yisrael, whose sons are dati, learners, and soldiers. I already heard "the tribe of Levi" didn't fight, not enough of a reason, the Rabat....okay. But don't we need an army? Wars have been ongoing since the time of Abraham? I welcome more explanations so I can further understand the chasidish perspective and perhaps even defend them in conversations with my peers.

At Wed Feb 26, 12:20:00 AM 2014, Blogger Genoism said...

There is no chassidish perspective necessary. Unless Hashem himself tells you to go to war you must default to the part in the torah that says if you follow all my mitzvos then no enemies will come even near your borders.

Those who trust in Hashem need not go to war or learn to kill. Unless they know 100% that someone is out to kill them - only then are you supposed to take action to kill them first.

This is not a chassish "view" this is the word of Hashem straight from the torah.

At Wed Feb 26, 01:59:00 AM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My rabbi said that we are in a state of "milchemet mitzvah" at all times which means that everyone (except the top learners) have to help defend our country.

At Wed Feb 26, 04:07:00 AM 2014, Blogger Yechezkel said...

Anonymous from 01:59 wrote:

>>"My rabbi said that we are in a state of "milchemet mitzvah" at all times which means that everyone (except the top learners) have to help defend our country."<<

I am sorry but your Rabbi is incorrect. There is no such thing as a "state" of milchama. Milchama only means an active battle of war. In today's terms it means when an army is mobilized.
When this happens, there is a mitzvah for everybody who is needed to actively participate - even top learners.
However, there is no mitzvah whatsoever to maintain a standing army that for the most part has nothing to do and certainly not to forcibly draft a single Torah learner into this dormant standing army.

At Wed Feb 26, 04:39:00 AM 2014, Blogger Neshama said...

Some clarifications.
There are two categories of war in the Torah:

Milhemet Reshus
Milhemet Mitzva

Only an army 'trained' is an army prepared.
When they are not in combat, they should be 'learning Torah".

At Wed Feb 26, 05:05:00 AM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To genoism,
Does this mean that if the chasidim have their own land -parts of eretz yisrael as their own country , with their own government they will not need an army? All the men can sit and learn? The Arabs won't attack? What about food- who will do the farming? You didn't address what you would say to rav kahana and rav kook. They surely had a different perspective than the chasidim.. I feel your response was incomplete. I'm looking for a more detailed response to understand...I don't like the lash on hara about the chasidim, and I welcome further understanding of their perspective
To share with others.

At Wed Feb 26, 08:28:00 AM 2014, Blogger Yitzy said...


Imclear that if you're aware of what the world looks like at the moment, but Israel is surrounded on all sides by enemies.

Egypt. a country almost as unstable as it gets at the moment.

Syria. Do I even need talk about this.

Iran. Nuclear seeking madhouse.

Palestinians. Made up people who are taught to hate anything Israeli or Jewish.

Jordan, a country made up mostly of Palestinians.

Lebanon, a country under the control of an anti Israeli anti semitic terrorist group.

It is pretty obvious that israel needs as much help as it needs. From g-d, of course, but we need to act as well. We are very much in a state of war, and if the only time you start preparing is once they've already attacked, then it is far far far too late to do anything.

At Wed Feb 26, 08:55:00 AM 2014, Blogger Devash said...

Yitzy, the measure of Israel's peace with her neighbors is the measure of their peace with the Creator. You think we have all these troubles because we are so righteous? You need to re-read Ha'azinu.

Why will there be peace when Mashiach comes? Because he will lead us to do what is right and we will obey.

At Wed Feb 26, 09:12:00 AM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rav Amar is absolutely right. This government has absolutely no respect for anything holy that is why I suspect they will end up giving up huge portions of Eretz Yisrael to our enemies.

At Wed Feb 26, 09:30:00 AM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous and Yitzy,

I'm not sure why you're harping on "chasidim". This has nothing to do with Hasidim, Litvaks, or Haredim. This has to do with those who choose to learn Torah as their trade of choice.

Everyone has their role to play to keep Israel safe. Within the army, there are various divisions and tasks. Some fight, some are tacticians, some are technicians, some are medics, some have peripheral jobs like KP.

There are those who are giving spiritual support - like those who daven and learn Torah. Those who learn Torah with Hatmada ARE DOING THEIR ROLE TO FIGHT THE WAR! Their job is needed in the Beit Midrash much more than in the battlefield.

If there is a Milhemet Hovah, then, as Yechezkel pointed out earlier, everyone who can contribute to the war effort in a physical way should do so. Nowadays, however, there are countless articles saying that the army is overburdened with people. THE ARMY DOES NOT NEED MORE PEOPLE for the physical war. Aderaba, they could use more people for the spiritual war!

Secondly, before Lapid, Bennet, and Netanyahu started this whole mess (well, the wicked Supreme Court was the instigator at first), Haredim were joining Tzahal at a rapid pace. There was no need for this stupid law. It will have the opposite effect of SLOWING the pace of Haredim into the army.

And finally, as Devash pointed out, there is a concerted effort to secularize Haredim by forcing them to be just like us (in the workplace, army, etc.). Devash is by far not the only person to state this. I've seen this in many articles on Kikar Hashabbat and other sites that this is their goal. Encouraging Haredim to work more or join the army in and of itself is not a bad thing. Forcing them to do so is MUCH different. It smacks of the Yemenite immigrant children coming to Israel and what happened to them.

PS, Anonymous, you cannot just wish away the Shevet Levi argument. If you have a good reason to counter it, by all means try to do so, but I cannot see anything you said so far that goes against it.

At Wed Feb 26, 09:31:00 AM 2014, Blogger madaral said...

Very nice. And therefore we should do ... as genoism says???

At Wed Feb 26, 11:31:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yak, you explained it well. Thanks

At Fri Feb 28, 03:50:00 AM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yak, can you prove that the charge idiom are from the sheet of Levi? You never responded what you would say to rav kook or nachman kahana. I am so wanting ...begging, for some points from the charedi side that will stand strong to helpthe yeshivas side understand. a lotof people want unity.Would you read nachman kahane's commentary on this week's parishad and give your comments? I look forward to reading what you have to say in response to his comments. I think it's very important for you to give a detailed response to rav kook and rav kahane's take on ones duty towards protecting am yisrael and Torah learning. This

is, I think my third request....and my last. This is your chance....

At Fri Feb 28, 09:31:00 AM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous 3:50,

You don't seem to be understanding what the Rambam said. I will quote it to you:

ולמה לא זכה לוי בנחלת ארץ ישראל ובביזתה עם אחיו מפני שהובדל לעבוד את י"י לשרתו ולהורות דרכיו הישרים ומשפטיו הצדיקים לרבים שנאמר יורו משפטיך ליעקב ותורתך לישראל. לפיכך הובדלו מדרכי העולם לא עורכין מלחמה כשאר ישראל ולא נוחלין ולא זוכין לעצמן בכח גופן. אלא הם חיל השם שנאמר ברך י"י חילו. והוא ברוך הוא זוכה להם שנאמר אני חלקך ונחלתך:

ולא שבט לוי בלבד אלא כל איש ואיש מכל באי העולם אשר נדבה רוחו אותו והבינו מדעו להבדל לעמוד לפני י"י לשרתו ולעובדו לדעה את י"י והלך ישר כמו שעשהו האלהים ופרק מעל צוארו עול החשבונות הרבים אשר בקשו בני האדם הרי זה נתקדש קדש קדשים ויהיה י"י חלקו ונחלתו לעולם ולעולמי עולמים ויזכה לו בעה"ז דבר המספיק לו כמו שזכה לכהנים ללוים.

In other words, anyone who wants to become like Shevet Levi may do so.

I read Rabbi Kahana's article, and while I do agree with some of what he wrote, I vehemently disagree with his "plan". By saying "just take the best guys", one is virtually saying, "Mai Ahani Lan Rabanan?" or "How do the rabbis help us?" I say absolutely not! Everyone who wants to learn should do so. You shouldn't need to pass a test. Learning Torah should be the right of all - no matter your abilities. We must believe that the learning of someone not as gifted - if done with the same Hatmada - has the same benefit as someone who is gifted.

Of course, those who are in Yeshiva just to fool around should be sent immediately to the army.

Here's Rav Shlomo Benizri's answer to many of the other points made re: David Hamelech. While I don't agree with his tone or his attack against DL, I think he's spot on in his reasoning and logic:

אופס! כמעט שכחתי את דברי הליצנות של עורך אתר סרוגים שאמר: "מזל שדוד המלך לא היה חרדי", כי דוד ואנשיו לא היו נלחמים אלא נשארים בישיבה".


ובאשר לטענתו שהנה ראינו גדולי עולם שנלחמו כמו דוד המלך ועוד, זו לא טענה והפוסקים דנו בכך ותירצו שעשו זאת מדין מפקדי צבא: "חובתם של בני לוי הייתה מדין מפקדי וראשי העם להימצא בצבא המלחמה, גם הרא"ש (הוריות י"ג) כתב: "לפי שהוא ראש עורכי מלחמה וחיי ישראל תלוין בו", וכן להורות ולהדריך את העם ככהן המשיח שחיזקם ואימץ לבבם, וכן עשה מלחמה בשביל רבים. וכן אצל פנחס נאמר (סנהדרין דף ק"ו) שחיי ישראל תלויין בו ("בר תלתין ותלת שנין בלעם חגירא כד קטיל יתיה פנחס ליסטאה". רש"י – "כד קטל יתיה פנחס ליסטאה - שר צבא, ואפילו קטליה אחר כל המלחמה נקראת על שמו"), ואף משה יצא והרים ידיו כלפי מעלה, וכמאמר חז"ל (מסכת ר"ה דף כ"ט) "וכי ידיו של משה עושות מלחמה".

כמו כן, מה ההשוואה בין דורות העבר כמו דורו של יהושע ודורו של דוד לדורנו? אז כמעט כולם היו יראי שמיים ות"ח, וגם אם שילבו תורה עם מלחמה - אחרים ישבו ולמדו תורה כנגדם, כמובא במסכת סנהדרין (דף מ"ט): "אלמלא דוד – לא עשה יואב מלחמה, ואלמלא יואב – לא עסק דוד בתורה". רש"י – אלמלא דוד – שהיה עוסק בתורה לא עשה יואב מלחמה, אבל זכותו של דוד עומדת לו ליואב במלחמותיו של דוד", אך בימינו שבעוונות הרבים, מיעוט קטן מהעם יושבים ועוסקים בתורה (רק 38 אלף מקבלי דיחוי) למה לפגוע בהם? במקום להיאבק בשביל אותו מיעוט שמגן על עם ישראל בתורתו, אנשים מהציונות הדתית נהיו הרודפים הגדולים נגדו.

If this is your last request, then Hatzlaha Rabba and Shabbat Shalom.


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