Wednesday, October 05, 2011

Geula Update from Rav Fish - Kippur, 5772

Here are some of the tidbits from Rav Fish's latest:
  • The Exodus from Egypt also occurred when the shadows of evening started stretching, as the Mechilta (Bo 5) says, "When did they leave?  From 6 hours onward, as it says 'בעצם היום הזה'.  Ribbi Natan says: How do we know a proof that 'Bein Ha'arbayim" is from 6 hours onward?  Even though there is no proof, there is a verse that can be used to remember this idea, 'אוֹי לָנוּ כִּי פָנָה הַיּוֹם כִּי יִנָּטוּ צִלְלֵי עָרֶב'."  [YY- the shadows really start to stretch at the 6.5 hour, as mentioned here based on Rashi Shabbat 9B s.v. מנחה גדולה.]
  • Midrash Aggada Bereishit 36:
  "שִׁיר לַמַּעֲלוֹת אֶשָׂא עֵינַי אֶל הֶהָרִים". זֶה שֶׁאָמַר הַכָּתוּב "עַד שֶׁיָּפוּחַ הַיּוֹם וְנָסוּ הַצְּלָלִים", לְפִי שֶׁיִּשְׂרָאֵל מִשְׁתַּעְבְּדִים בַּמַּלְכֻיּוֹת הֵם אוֹמְרִים רִבּוֹן כָּל הָעוֹלָמִים עַד מָתַי מִשְׁתַּעְבְּדִים בָּנוּ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר "עַד אָנָה אָשִׁית עֵצוֹת בְּנַפְשִׁי", וְהַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא אוֹמֵר לָהֶן "עַד שֶׁיָּפוּחַ הַיּוֹם וְנָסוּ הַצְּלָלִים", אֵלּוּ הַמַּלְכֻיּוֹת שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר "אוֹי לָנוּ כִּי פָנָה הַיּוֹם כִּי יִנָּטוּ צִלְלֵי עָרֶב
  • The Likutim of the Ariza"l (Toledot p.76):
 וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם וְלַחֹשֶךְ קָרָא לָיְלָה, וַיְהִי עֶרֶב וַיְהִי בֹקֶר יוֹם אֶחָד", וְרָמַז לְזֶה הַגָּלוּת הַמַּר הַנִּקְרָא לַיְלָה, שֶׁהוּא יוֹם אֶחָד לַה', כִּי אֶלֶף שָׁנִים בְּעֵינָיו כְּיוֹם אֶחָד, וְאָז בֶּהֱיוֹת יוֹם אֶחָד שֶׁלֹּא יוֹדֵעַ לֹא יוֹם וְלֹא לַיְלָה מִגֹּדֶל הַתַּעֲרֹבֶת, אָז יִהְיֶה מֻכְרָח שֶׁיַּבְדִּיל אֱלֹהִים בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶךְ, וְזֶהוּ "וְהָיָה לְעֵת עֶרֶב יִהְיֶה אוֹר", בִּזְמַן שֶׁיִּנָּטוּ צִלְלֵי עֶרֶב. וְאָז יִפָּרַע השי"ת מֵאֱדוֹם הָרְשָׁעָה, וְיִדְרְכֵם בְּאַפָּיו וְיִרְמְסֵם בַּחֲמָתוֹ בְּתוֹךְ הַגַּת שֶׁל יַיִן, בְּתֹקֶף הַגְּבוּרוֹת, וְזֶה שֶׁכָּתוּב "פּוּרָה דָּרַכְתִּי לְבַדִּי.
  • The Siddur HaRasha"sh says that when we say the ובכןs on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, we should have in mind that בכן has the gematria of 72 [YY - as is printed in many Sephardic Mahzorim] and these paragraphs are about the Final Redemption.
  • In the name of Harav Hagaon R' David Samson Shlit"a: we find in the Siddur HaRasha"sh that when saying the chapter of Tehillim (Psalm 20) יענך ה' ביום צרה, which contains 70 words, one should have in mind the 70 sounds of a birthing mother, and when saying the Kedusha of Uva Letziyon, one should have in mind the birth of the Heavenly influence of the entire day.  It comes out that the words, ובא לציון גואל are words 71, 72, and 73 respectively.  Going a bit deeper, the words ובא לציון hint to the birth as Tziyon symbolizes the birthplace, whereas גואל hints to the actual Redemption, in the year 5773.
  • Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld saw the Balfour Declaration as a sign of the End of Days.  The Hafetz Hayim, on the other hand, saw it as the Redemption coming via nature, and saw the infux of Jews to Eretz Yisrael an עת פקידה.  The Hazon Ish said similarly in his letters (vol. 1, 109).
  • When Rashi on Daniel 8:13 says ערב ובקר is a gematria, Harav Hagaon R' Berel Eisenblat Shlit"a says he means that לעת ערב is the gematria that is being referred to, which equals 772.
  • תקע בשופר is the same letters as פרוק תשע"ב ("redeem 5772").
  • The Hafetz Hayim says that whoever doesn't contemplate the Redemption process is similar to a man who accepted the Torah at Mt. Sinai but did not learn from it.
  • R' Yonatan Eybeshitz, in Tiferet Yehonatan on Nitzavim, says that the Jews in the Diaspora are in for a second-wave of ingathering of the exiles, but the Shechina will have gone to Israel first, and as a result, the Diaspora Jews will be left without protection [YY - see also a recent Tomer Devorah post and a recent Shirat Devorah post].  The Netziv in Ha'ameik Davar also mentions a second-wave of ingathering.  Rav Yehezkel Levenstein ZT"L said in the name of the Hafetz Hayim that it will be more difficult for those in the Diaspora to be redeemed, and will require more merits.
  • The Malbim on Micha 4:8 that I mentioned here.
  • Zecharia 14:16 (see Radak and Metzudot David there) and onwards prove that the Gog Umagog War will be on Sukkot.
  • Zecharia 14:12 proves unconventional weapons like those that exist today will be used in the war.
Also, not mentioned by Rav Fish, but Geulah Perspectives reminds us of the 70th anniversary of the single-largest massacre of the Holocaust at Babi-Yar on the 8th and 9th of Tishri, 5701.  The first death camp opened the following day.  I believe that there is significance to this.

31 Comments:

At Wed Oct 05, 01:44:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is the purpose of yet more speculation?

 
At Wed Oct 05, 02:33:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Did you even read the post? You will find a lot more than mere speculation. Did you read what the Hafetz Hayim said about one who doesn't contemplate the Redemption process?

 
At Wed Oct 05, 03:04:00 PM 2011, Blogger Devorah said...

Gog u Magog war on Sukkot....
well that should be interesting.
The rabbis in Israel say all decrees have been delayed again.
Let's see.
Thanks for the translation.

 
At Wed Oct 05, 03:18:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Just to clarify, the proofs from Zecharia don't necessarily mean Sukkot, 5772, but rather, Sukkot on some year.

Combined with everything else, you can take it however you want.

 
At Wed Oct 05, 03:31:00 PM 2011, Blogger Israel Rising said...

Nice collection. It obvious that the process is well under way. The question is whether we should try to specify which date or not.

It certainly seems like things are heating up and we know that when there is pressure it usually needs a release.

 
At Wed Oct 05, 03:34:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"redemption process" does not equal speculative gemartios, and "proving" it has to be 5772. It's talking about the event leading up to the geula as spelled out by tanach. R' Fish's constantly "crying wolf" is nothing short of a chilul hashem, however noble his intentions may be.

 
At Wed Oct 05, 03:46:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

No one - not even Rav Fish - is proving it has to be 5772. I never translated his disclaimer, but if you'd read it, you'd see. To call it a "chilul Hashem" is ridiculous beyond words, and I urge you to retract your statement before Yom Kippur for your own sake.

Here's his disclaimer in Hebrew:

הערה: מאמר זה אין מטרתו להיות ממחשבי קיצין ח"ו, ובפרט שמאמר זה מחשב קץ דבעיתה שמשיח חייב לבא, והטענה נגד
מחשבי קיצין היא נגד מחשבי קיצין דאחישנה, שחוששים שמא לא יבא ותפגם האמונה. כל הטענות האלו לא שייכות כלל לקץ
דבעיתה. ועיין במאמר הגאולה לרמב"ן (שער ד' בכתבי רמב"ן הוצאת מוסד הרב קוק) שבאחרית הימים מותר לחשב קיצין, ומתייחס כבר
לדורו כזמן אחרית הימים, ומחשב שם קץ. וכן מובא שם שקודם הזמן של הקץ האמיתי הוא יפורסם בעולם, וכולם יבינו את
הקץ. וזה לשון רש"י (דניאל ח יד) ואנ ו נ וחיל להבטחת מלכנ ו קץ אחר קץ, ובעבור קץ הדורש נ ודע כי טעה במדרשי ו,
והבא אחריו יתור ו ידרוש דרך אחרת. ורואים מדברי רש"י שהנביא מזכיר קיצים כדי שנדרוש ונחשב אותם, ואם יעבור
הזמן והמשיח לא יבוא, נדרוש ונחשב קץ חדש.
מאמר זה תכליתו לעורר את הקורא שזה הזמן להתחיל לקבוע עיתים לעסוק בפנימיות התורה כל אחד לפי ערכו, ולא לדחות
אפילו ביום אחד. אין שום עצה לעבור את תהליכי הגאולה ברחמים ובחסדים רק על ידי לימוד הענינים האלו, כמפורש בדברי
הזהר פרשת נשא, וּ ב ג י ן דַּ עֲ תִ י דִ ין יִ שְׂ רָ אֵ ל לְ מִ טְ עַ ם מֵ אִ י לָ נָ א דְּ ח יּ י דּ א י ה וּ ה א י ס פ ר הזּ הַ ר י פּ ק וּ ן בֵּ י הּ מִ גָּ לוּ תָ א בְּ רַ חֲ מֵ י. [לא
מוזכר בחז"ל שכתוב שאם כל עם ישראל עושים תשובה, הגאולה תבא ברחמים, מוזכר שתשובה מביאה את הגאולה, אבל לא
מוזכר אם בדין או ברחמים. מאידך לגבי העצה של לימוד פנימיות התורה מוזכר שזה מביא את הגאולה ברחמים.] כמו כן מי
שיכנס לפנימיות לאחר גילוי המשיח בימים שנאמר עליהם " אֵ י ן ל י ב ה ם ח פ ץ", אינו דומה כלל למי שנכנס ללימוד הפנימיות
בזמן הגלות.
וגם אם אינך מאמין יותר לקיצין, ואתה חושב אולי יש פירושים אחרים בשבעת המקומות שהבאנו מהזהר, מותר לך לחשוש
מצד הספק אולי זה אמת, והרי מלחמת גוג ומגוג היא פיקוח נפש של כלל ישראל, [עיין בתיקוני זהר מח: שבגוג ומגוג הים הגדול
יקבל צבע אדום מרוב דם שישפך. ועיין בפסוקים בזכריה ( יג, ח,) ששני שליש מהעולם לא ישרוד את המלחמה] וגם על ספק
פיקוח נפש מחללין את השבת, וביכולתך להציל רבים מישראל על ידי קיום דברי חז"ל ללמוד ענינים של פנימיות התורה, ובפרט
ללמוד בספר הזהר הקדוש.
כתוב (תהילים מו) " ל מ נ צּ ח ל ב נ י ק ר ח ע ל ע ל מ וֹ ת שׁ י ר: א ל ה י ם ל נ וּ מ ח ס ה וָ ע ז עֶ זְ רָ ה בְ צָ ר וֹת נִ מְ צָ א מְ א ד : עַ ל כֵּ ן ל א נִ י רָ א
בּ ה מ י ר אָ ר ץ וּ בְ מ וֹט הָ ר י ם בְּ לֵ ב י מּ י ם: י ה מ וּ י ח מ ר וּ מ י מ י ו י ר ע שׁ וּ ה ר י ם בְּ גַ אֲ וָ תוֹ ס ל ה: נ ה ר פּ ל ג י ו י שַׂ מּ ח וּ עִ יר אֱ ל הִ ים קְ ד שׁ
מ שׁ כּ נ י ע ל י וֹ ן: אֱ ל הִ ים בּ ק ר בּ הּ בַּ ל תּ מּ וֹ ט יַ עְ זְ רֶ הָ אֱ ל הִ ים לִ פְ נוֹ ת בּ קֶ ר : ה מ וּ ג וֹ יִ ם מָ טוּ מ מ ל כ וֹת נ ת ן בּ ק וֹ ל וֹ תָּ מוּ ג אָ רֶ ץ : ה'
צְ בָ אוֹ ת ע מּ נ וּ מ שׂ גּ ב ל נ וּ אֱ ל הֵ י יַ עֲ ק ב סֶ לָ ה ". ומפרש המצודת דוד "בהמיר ארץ" כשתחלף הארץ מהשקט לרעד, וכאשר
ינועו ההרים ליפול בעומק הים, והוא משל על מפלת גוג. "יהמו", מי הים יהמו ברוב גליו ויגרשו רפש וטיט, וההרים
ירעשו לעולם בגאות ה', ומכל זה לא נירא. "נהר פלגיו", פלגי הנהר היוצא מבית המקדש כמו שכתוב "והנה מים
יוצאים", המים ההם ישמחו יושבי עיר אלהים שהוא מקום קדוש אשר שם משכני עליון. "אלהים בקרבה" ה' ישכון
בקרב ירושלים, לכן לא תמוט. "לכו" אתה גוג וחבירך אשר אתך, לכו וראו מפעלות ה' אשר יעשה שממה בארץ. רואים
שמפלת גוג תהיה "לפנות בוקר" על ידי צונאמי ורעידות אדמה וכו'. וה' ישכון בקרב ירושלים להצילה בזכות פלגי הנהר היוצא
מבית המקדש שהוא הנהר של החכמה שיצא לעתיד לבא מבית המקדש, ומרמז על פנימיות התורה כידוע. ומכאן ראיה לדברי
הזהר שפנימיות התורה תגן על עם ישראל בזמן הגאולה שתבוא ברחמים.

 
At Wed Oct 05, 05:31:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for the post. 2 questions:

1- I have been looking for sources (like R' Eybeshitz) for the concept of the Shechina leaving galut and returing to Eretz Yisrael prior/during the Geula process. Could you provide, at least the one of R' Eybeshitz.

2- Also, the source for the Hafetz Hayim regarding contemplating the redemption process - I found this very interesting, even to reflect upon what is implied by this.

Thanks, and tizke le'mitzvot,

Isaac

 
At Wed Oct 05, 06:05:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

The Tiferet Yehonatan can be found here.

The Hafeitz Hayim's statement can be found here.

 
At Wed Oct 05, 06:32:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

He writes Gog U'magog is expected to be in 5773! not 5772! Wasn't R Fish constantly "building up" for 5772? Suddenly he seems to be moving everything to 5773?

 
At Wed Oct 05, 06:53:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

please no dates youve never seen God in an image like isiah the prophet did you guys are talmedi chachamim at best not prophets !

 
At Wed Oct 05, 07:22:00 PM 2011, Anonymous tzvi bar-lieb said...

so rav shumeli dsaid gog magog sukkus 5772
and yaakov bar nahmann said hoshana rabba

 
At Wed Oct 05, 08:04:00 PM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

is this the statement of the Chafetz Chaim in question?

כל ענין רוחני לא יהיה ניכר ערכו ולא יהיה מורגש טעמו רק למתבונן בו, ולמשל ידיעת התורה ללומדים למתעסקים בה. וממש כזה תהיה ביאת המשיח שהיא התגלות השכינה בכל העולם, ומי שאינו מתבונן בביאת המשיח לא ירגיש בה מאומה

I think so. But that is a far cry from the summary (?):
שמי שאינו מתבונן בתהליכי הגאולה הוא דומה לאדם שקיבל תורה מסיני ולא לומד בה. שאינו נחשב למקבל תורה, אותו דבר אותו אדם שלא מתבונן בתהליכי הגאולה, הוא לא נגאל. ונביא את דבריו

Unless the base statement appears later.

The former statement is that only one who contemplates will appreciate and sense the proceedings of mashiach, not that he won't be redeemed!

The later statement (summary?) is much starker.

 
At Wed Oct 05, 11:04:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous 6:32, Rav Fish most certainly did mention both 5772 and 5773 earlier. See here.

Josh, it's exactly the same. One who does not contemplate the Mashiah process will not appreciate the whole concept of Mashiah coming so when he comes, it's as if he wasn't redeemed. He's not saying that it's a punishment that he won't be redeemed - he's saying that it's a metziut in his own mind that he'll be unaware of what just took place.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 06:22:00 AM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

yaak:
it is not the same at all! and הוא לא נגאל is rather crude for not sensing the התגלות השכינה בכל העולם.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 09:11:00 AM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It must be very difficult to be a geula blogger. I doubt that I would be able to stand up to the stress and criticism. May your detractors take this blog for what it is, baruch HaShem. I for one appreciate it for its thought provoking analysis AND comments. No matter when he may arrive, I eagerly await Moshiach daily and speculation of when such a time may arrive both excites and motivates me. Thanks.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 09:17:00 AM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Josh, many interpretations of the statement said to the wicked son of the Haggaddah (לא היה נגאל) is exactly what I said.



Anonymous 9:11, bless you.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 09:54:00 AM 2011, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

Pardon my ignorance, but why would the Shechinah have to vacate one place in order to be in another? We're not talking about one of us who would have to choose a sole location at any point in time.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 10:17:00 AM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

When the Beit Hamikdash was destroyed, the Shechina went out of the Beit Hamikdash and went into exile with the Jewish people. Besides praying for the end of the exile of the Jewish people, we also pray for the end of the exile of the Shechina. There is a particularly sad Kina on Tish'a Be'av called Shechina Tzo'eket Behare'a that depicts the departure of the Shechina from the Beit Hamikdash.

To answer your question, I'm not expert, but the way I understand it, the Shechina designates a physical place for it to reside, so to speak.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 11:39:00 AM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry if my question regarding sources has caused some debate.

I am intrigued with the concept of the Shechina leaving galut prior to the redemption. If this is the case and our Sages wrote of this concept who could deny that this would be the period in which this is happening?

This would definitely entail another aliyah to the land. In such a case why are our Chachamim not encouraging leaving this galut if the vessel is already in place to receive us?

There could be an issue with Sakanat Nefashot by staying in galut.

Are there any other sources that talk about this?

Thanks,

Isaac

 
At Thu Oct 06, 11:59:00 AM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Isaac, you are asking a good question. My answer would be that encouraging mass aliya is a huge deal. Nothing is clear enough right now to be definite that would prompt the Hachamim to make such a declaration. When clarity sets in, they will. Or perhaps some miraclulous occurrance will bring everyone there on wings of eagles. I don't know.

Although I encourage Aliya for those who are able to do so, I would never tell people, "You must go on Aliya right now" unless there was a clear and imminent danger to their lives. Let's not get scared into going, but we can get nudged into going. And I'm nudging myself too, as I too live in Hutz La'aretz. That's the purpose of bringing down Rav Eybeshutz here.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 01:52:00 PM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"many interpretations of the statement "

interpretations, now?! what did the CC say? it is not fair to start making drashot, and then present it as what the CC said.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 02:06:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Josh, the Hafetz Hayim said "לא ירגיש בה מאומה". That, to me, means that he will not even realize what's going on around him when it happens. That is what Rav Fish is saying when he says הוא לא נגאל. He is saying that the geula will happen, but it will be so immaterial to such a person that he's not getting any "redemption" at all. That is exactly what the Hafetz Hayim said.

No Derashot needed.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 02:08:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

"When the Beit Hamikdash was destroyed, the Shechina went out of the Beit Hamikdash and went into exile with the Jewish people.'

Fine, but why wouldn't the Shechina prepare the Land for our arrival while simultaneously protecting us in Galus til we reach the Land?

 
At Thu Oct 06, 02:24:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Bob, we hope it does, but Rav Yonatan Eybeshutz says it won't.

I don't know if anyone argues on him in this idea. If someone does that you are aware of, please let me know.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 03:01:00 PM 2011, Blogger Devorah said...

I don't know about arguing with Rav Eybeshutz, but the Lubavitcher Rebbe said No Jew will be left behind

He also taught that when Moshiach comes, the entire world will be israel and israel itself will be Jerusalem.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 03:08:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Rav Eybeshutz agrees that there will be an ingathering of all Jews, but he just says that there won't be protection from the Shechina before that happens.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 03:17:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Even though the whole world will be considered Israel, it is becoming apparent that the Geula is coming with a big crisis - The question is where do we want to be when this crisis comes, especially if the Shechina is concentrating itself in Eretz Yisrael.

There is already civil unrest in the West and all signs are pointing to further economic and social decline, r'l.

Sometimes I feel that the Rebbe knew that the Sages were indeed telling us that many Jews will not believe in Mashiach like in Egypt and not be redeemed, and despite this he had to change the reality - think good and it will be good - No Jew will be left behind.

This issue of a receding Shechina is disconcerting.

 
At Thu Oct 06, 03:25:00 PM 2011, Blogger Devorah said...

I can assure you from my own personal experiences lately that the Shechina is still here in Sydney Australia, although I can't speak for the rest of the world :)

I believe that while the Shechina may abandon countries, it doesn't abandon people who have emunah. So we're all safe. No worries mate !

 
At Fri Oct 07, 03:21:00 AM 2011, Blogger Gibbo said...

sigh....I love you Deborah!!!

 
At Fri Oct 07, 07:18:00 AM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"No Derashot needed."

I think it is. I would like to examine context, of course. But, for example, it might refer to the hesech hadaas preceding mashiach's arrival. there is this development in the coming of mashiach, which is spiritual, or is only recognizable for those looking for it. various geulah bloggers have made a statement akin to this. how can people not see these apocalyptic events in action?! the world economy is collapsing! the arab spring! snow, in winter! only those looking for it will sense it, and for the others, sensing the coming of mashiach is beyond them.

that does not mean that when mashiach has finally arrived, with the Bet Hamikdash in its place, etc., etc., people will not have been redeemed. The arrival of mashiach is physical, not just on the spiritual plane.

Disagree with my spin of this statement if you want, but this is how I read it plainly. R' Fish's reinterpretation (and crude summary via "they will not be redeemed"), is interpretation, introducing assumptions into the mix.

 

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