Translation of the Statement of the 3 Moatzot
The 3 Torah councils met Monday night and issued the following statement, followed by my translation:
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| Statement of the 3 Moatzot Source: Kikar and YWN |
With Hashem Yitbarach's help, 25 Adar I, 5774
It is not a time to be silent when arose among the people of the ruling government in Eretz Yisrael - with the direction of the prime minister - to rebel against the Kingdom of Heaven. And their intent is with them to decree - Rahmana Litzlan - about uprooting the Torah and to place upon Torah learners - whose trade is Torah - a criminal punishment so bad that it could cause them to be thrown into jail.
We are trembling due to the Hillul Hashem and the insult to Torah that is in this matter. We are fearful of the result and are pained by the continued and intentional scheming against the Torah world and the unending attempts to restrict its steps every step of the way.
In light of this, we have decided the following:
1) The Councils of Torah Gedolim and Sages demand from the government to immediately cancel the decisions of the committee for the forced conscription of Yeshiva and Kollel students, and call upon all Yeshiva and Kollel students not to be drafted into the army in any way whatsoever, not to be swayed by any enticements or punishments, and not to cooperate with an army program at a Haredi classification center. Rather, they should continue to learn their studies day and night.
2) If, G-d forbid, those chasing after religion will remove their muzzles in action and enact a law of forced conscription, the Councils of Torah Gedolim and Sages will gather for an advisory meeting against those chasing after religion and their schemes, and will weigh the possibility of forbidding going to the recruiting offices at all.
3) The Councils of Torah Gedolim and Sages demands from the government not to restrict the steps of the Torah world, but rather, to help the spread of Torah and educational institutions in the Holy Land in the path that was paved by our rabbis.
4) The Councils of Torah Gedolim and Sages turns now to the myriads of Your nation, the House of Israel with the call: "There is nothing left over for us - except this Torah". Learning Torah and fulfilling its Mitzvot with holiness and purity are the protecting wall of Am Yisrael wherever they live from all troubles and tribulations. And they are what will stand in the hard times that visit the House of Israel wherever they live, both in public and private matters, both in spiritual and physical matters. We must therefore strengthen ourselves tenfold in learning Torah and fulfilling Mitzvot with purity and all minutiae of Halacha.
5) The Councils of Torah Gedolim and Sages call upon our brothers, the whole House of Israel, wherever they live - in Israel and abroad - to grab hold of the trade of our forefathers in their hands to gather all the Jews together - every tribe of Israel - men and children - to mightily call out to Hashem - to plead and supplicate toward our Father in Heaven to have mercy upon us like a father for his children. And we are announcing with this to gather together all that fear and tremble before the word of Hashem in a gathering of prayer, outcry, and mass protest on Sunday, 7 Adar II, 5774. There should be within it a sanctification of the Name of Heaven to counteract the desecration of the Name of Heaven that was performed by the uprooters of religion.
And Hashem Yitbarach should hear our cries and accept our prayers for mercy and acceptance, and He should hurry to redeem us and take us out from trouble to safety and from darkness to great light, speedily in our days, Amen.
posted by yaak @ 2/24/2014 05:26:00 PM
41 comments
41 Comments:
Can someone please explain to me...weren't there wars fought throughout the tanach ? I honestly don't know which side is right....it doesn't seem fair that there are those that have to be in the army and those that don't. Why not have the true scholars...Talmudia Chaim learn full time while the others do some service. In all the articles, blogs, etc., I haven't come across a truly reasonable explanation for totall exemption from army service. Didn't dovid hamelach fight with a sword and the tanach...one in each hand? Please someone offer an explanation to the modern orthodox who may be confused.
Prison for not constripting into the idf , secular zionizm was built on russian socialist values , and communist rusia put in siberia r forced contription of many torah sholars . I suggest if this is indeed the decree , prison , then religious jews leave this place and go to ny , baltimore, lakewood, moncey , monroe , keriat yoel , boro park , wiliamsburg , crown height , los angelas , montreal , toronto etc etc etc . One intresting note our brothers in the shtachime arent the only ones " this time " faceing the ax / decree , the hard core haredi are now in trouble and in need of mercy .
Anonymous 5:44 #1:
Those who learn Torah are the ones who keep the Jewish people protected, whether they are Talmidei Hachamim or not. Those who learn Torah should have an automatic exemption just as the Tribe of Levi had an exemption from the army in Biblical times. The Rambam at the end of Hilchot Shemita Veyovel compares Torah learners to the tribe of Levi.
David Hamelech fought since that is the role of a king. There is no comparison to those who seek to learn Torah day and night.
Fairness is Lapid's dire cry. But if you're going to play that game, why should the Haredim and religious have to do all the learning in Klal Yisrael? It isn't fair! The non-religious should share the burden of Torah!(and it must be Torah from valid rabbis - not Ms. Calderon's mumbo-jumbo)
I do agree (not all Haredim do) that those Haredim who don't learn should go to the army. The army has a long way to go to accommodate them completely, and I hope they can make those accommodations. Based on the latest statement, however, if the rabbanim decree not to send anyone due to the government decree, then that will be my position too.
I'm gonna stick with my opinion here, I think there is major over exaggeration going on on both sides here.
To start filing criminal charges against those who are in learning is way out of line. The state of Israel is first and foremost a Jewish state, and a Jewish state means having a vibrant community of Torah learners. To try to stop people from genuinely learning is truly a terrible idea that goes completely against the whole foundation of the state.
On the other hand, chareidim make up a large percentage of the population of Israel. For them to not help in any way is not only a chilul hashem for those that do go to the army, but also encourages those that would rather the state be entirely secular. In addition, while Israel may be country founded on mostly secular values, it's is still a Jewish state. It is not the conscription of the cossaks, it is a conscription to actively help protect Am Yisrael. To be so actively against it seems to me to be massive conflict of interest.
Finally, I just want to point out that the continued arguing between the two 'sides' can come to no good, and will only further entrench each 'side' against each other. The reason for the destruction of the second bet hamikdash was due to sinas chinam, and that comes from refusing to crept, or even listen to other people's views. The 3rd bet hamikdash can only come from Ahavah, and that is definitely not with this is. I can only hope that they realise that they are not on opposite 'sides' at all, but rather all Am Yisrael, and that we need a balance within our people.
I'd just like to point out that when I say 'not to help in any way at all' I do not, chas veshalom, mean to say that learning Torah is not helping. On the contrary, every jew learning is an army unto itself (an army I am glad to be a part of). What I refer to is the secular viewpoint of the chilonim, who don't understand the value of the Torah, and thus don't attribute the Torah community to the protection of Israel. While their viewpoint may be wrong, it is maaras ayin for us to continue in this way of the majority refusing to serve, especially when these chilonim make up the majority of the people who are currently in control of this country.
Yitzy, Yishar Koach. Where is the self-examination that is so obviously needed and long overdue?
Yitzy,
On the other hand, chareidim make up a large percentage of the population of Israel. For them to not help in any way is not only a chilul hashem for those that do go to the army, but also encourages those that would rather the state be entirely secular.
I agree that there should not be any distinction between Hareidim and non-Hareidim. The distinction I and members of the Shas party have made all along is Torah-learners and non-Torah-learners. This removes any Hillul Hashem since the reason for not serving is Torah - not being born to a Haredi family.
In addition, while Israel may be country founded on mostly secular values, it's is still a Jewish state. It is not the conscription of the cossaks, it is a conscription to actively help protect Am Yisrael. To be so actively against it seems to me to be massive conflict of interest.
But what you must understand is that Torah learning also actively protects Am Yisrael, even more so. And, as already stated, it is not that they are against other Haredim serving in the army - they are against taking Torah learners away from Torah learning, our greatest protection, to join the army, which is merely a Hishtadlut protection. It it more of a conflict of interest to conscript Torah learners into the army!
Finally, I just want to point out that the continued arguing between the two 'sides' can come to no good, and will only further entrench each 'side' against each other. The reason for the destruction of the second bet hamikdash was due to sinas chinam, and that comes from refusing to crept, or even listen to other people's views. The 3rd bet hamikdash can only come from Ahavah, and that is definitely not with this is. I can only hope that they realise that they are not on opposite 'sides' at all, but rather all Am Yisrael, and that we need a balance within our people.
Believe me, Haredim have heard other people's views for many, many years. The secular don't let a day go by without letting their voice be heard. And contrary to what you may have heard, barring a few misguided individuals, there is no lack of Ahavah coming from the Haredi side. If anything, the Sin'ah is coming from the other side much more frequently. But Ahava need not mean compromise or balance, nor should it! We can love one another without compromising the correct position of keeping Torah learners learning.
While their viewpoint may be wrong, it is maaras ayin for us to continue in this way of the majority refusing to serve, especially when these chilonim make up the majority of the people who are currently in control of this country.
Mar'it Ha'ayin - it is definitely not! Let's say the government decides that enact a law that Kippot Serugot are banned. Is it Mar'it Ha'ayin for the Dati Leumi community to defy such a unlawful law? Will you say that since the majority considers it unlawful, we must obey? Of course not!
Madaral,
Where is the self-examination that is so obviously needed and long overdue?
I love how people from Group B always - without fail - say that the people from Group A "obviously needs self-examination"...
I am in no group, Yaak. The cheshbon nefesh applies to me, but is absent from what you posted.
This is purely a political trance against the Zionist enterprise called the State of Israel! It is a Golus hangover and has to change. it smacks of the Erev Zeir.
What about ALL the other Israeli men and boys who are learning Torah, LIVING Torah lives and also working/serving in the army!?
I balieve totally that this is what HaShem wants and that this is why this is happening.
I mean "stance". Sorry.
To the first Anonymous at 05:44 pm who wants an explaination for the Modern Orthodox who are confused --
I wrote an entire book as an attempt to explain these things to the confused MO. The book is titled: One Above and Seven Below - A consumer's guide to Orthodox Judaism from the perspective of the Chareidim (you can google it).
Many MO are reluctant to read the book because they are afraid of hearing a true explanation.
As far as this issue: You cannot rely on what you think it says in the Tanach but rather on what Chazal tell us it says in the Tanach. To do this, you must study lots of Chazal like we chareidim do.
This cannot be covered briefly which is why it indeed requires a whole book.
You can contact me directly at: 1a7b.author@gmail.com
Y. Hirshman - author
Thank you to those who offered explanations. The one one that rings the most truthful is yitzy's. mt comments about king David and tanach comes from reading rabbi nachman kahana , rav kook, and being involved in a Zionist dati community where our sons are soldiers and learners. We don't know who the tribe of Levi are. I ask again, why not the Talmudia chachim...the top Torah learners learn while others contribute to the protection of am yisrael? Why should my son risk his life in combat and learn Torah while other boys his age..the ..mediocre learners , sit safely in yeshiva? I also know of some who got exemption and are supposed to be learning , but in fact are traveling to America instead! I am writing all this because I strongly believe we are am yisrael...one nation, but when you are a parent or an 18 year old going into combat ,it creates bad feelings towards the chasidim. Torah study is invaluable, but at this point, is there anything that the chassis ism or rabbinic can do to create relations with the rest of am yisrael? On a separate note, what about the elections in bet shemesh? I listen to my 'yeshiva orthodox' grins and neighbors begin to speak negatively about the chasidim also. What can the chasidim do to better this situation? What explanations can they give to help the rest of am yisrael understand? They are part of am yisrael, aren,t they? That we know....we don't know who the tribe of Levi was. Thank you to everyone's responses. I think there needs to be a clearer understanding offered ....to the regular folk.
Yaak, But what about this:
"As the proposed bill is now structured, very few actual haredi yeshiva students would be drafted against their will. Instead, the haredi quota would primarily be filled by ba’al teshuvas, ex-haredim, haredi shabbabnikim (‘bums’ who either were expelled from haredi yeshivas or walked out of them and who now roam the streets in packs), and Chabad hasidim (who are not part of the mainstream haredi community and its negotiating process)."
The above I believe was conceived by those close to Rav Shteinman.
"But the proposed bill as it is now worded would allow many haredim to leave yeshiva in their early- to mid-20s, and would also lead to many haredim joining the workforce in some fashion, things haredi rabbinic leaders feel would lessen the authenticity of the haredi community – and haredi rabbis’ hold on their followers."
Madaral,
Is what they called for more Torah learning and prayer not considered Heshbon Hanefesh in your eyes?
Neshama,
Ain Lecha Ben Horin Ela Mi She'osek Batorah.
How is wanting to learn Torah all day a Galut mentality?
The Pasuk in Malachi says Zichru Torat Moshe right before Hineh Anochi Shole'ah Lachem Et Eliya Hanavi. Just the opposite! Learning Torah more is a Geula mentality!
Yechezkel, thanks for commenting.
Anonymous 7:17,
I agree that the majority of society who cannot handle learning Torah all day should serve in the army. I don't disagree with that.
The "risking one's life" argument is also invalid. Everyone has their role. Yair Lapid wrote for BaMahane Magazine. Why should everyone else risk their life while he gets a cushy job as a newspaper writer?
The answer is that everyone has their role. Combat soldiers have their role. Medics have their role. IDF technicians have their role. Torah learners have their role. And yes, even Bamahane reporters have their role.
If not, let's use the "equality" argument to support feminism as well.
Re: the tribe of Levi. I never said that we know who the tribe of Levi is. Rather, the Rambam at the end of Shemitta VeYovel says that anyone who wants to take on the burden of Torah can be like Shevet Levi.
If I didn't convince you, I hope that one day you will understand the Torah position on this.
Yak, wasn't the tribe of Levi a small tribe of Torah scholars, designated by Hashem not to fight but to learn? Why not the top scholars learn, while a compromise for the others as Neshama'S stated? I'm open to supporting the chasidim learning whille having my sons learn and be Hashems soldiers in combat, but a more thorough
Explanation would be welcomed. Can you address Neshama'S
Comments more specifically? This is a good opportunity for youto educate those outside your community.
Neshama 8:27,
There's nothing wrong with incentives for working or army service.
The problem with this legislation is that bottom line, they're criminalizing Torah learning for those who don't wish to do army service. That's the main objection. Also, that they're creating quotas, which would have been filled anyways in time. Now, there's a real possibility that this legislation will backfire and no Haredi will be permitted by the Rabbanim to go to the army. What stupidity by the Shaked Commission and Yesh Atid!
Anonymous,
As stated, there is no problem with people going to the army. (Besides that the army is not totally conducive for Haredi men - hopefully, those issues can be rectified with time and education.)
The problem is Torah-learners. You say just take the top guys. That is not fair to those who really want to learn and learn with Hatmada, but maybe don't have the Kochot as others do.
Do you know that Rav Elchanan Wasserman was not a top student? If he lived in a Lapid-led Israel, he would have been lost to Klal Yisrael.
Besides, the end result of "Who can come out as a big rabbi?" isn't important to the goal of having Torah learning in our society. The goal itself is having Torah learning in our society!
From your comment, not all should be learners....so what is the demonstration about? Where is the compromise from the chasidim? That's all....I'm proud of my sons...in combat and learners, how brave! They can learn full time after their service....these young men are the true tzaddikim, Jewish heros and role models for the non dati. What would you respond to rav kook, rav kahana? I think a lot of chasidim are ' hiding out' in yeshiva . And this is where the compromise needs to be...without compromise, the chasidim perspective doesn't ring 100% truth, and creates dislike for the chakra dim. The Raban explanation is incomplete This from a mom in a 'black
hat' community in eretz yisrael. I was hoping for a strong explanation to offer those in my community who are a bit negative towards the chasidim
Not that not all should be learners, but that those who are learning should continue learning - not be forced into the army.
You should be proud of your sons if they are learning and in the army. They are doing 2 great mitzvot.
However, the optimal way of Torah learning is doing so uninterrupted. (I believe Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz used this analogy:) It's like a kettle of water that gets close to the boiling point, but then the water gets turned off and this scenario repeats itself many times. The water never gets boiled - even though it's close.
Similarly, the optimal way to reach spiritual heights in Torah is to learn Torah uninterrupted. The army is a major interruption. I don't fault Hesder boys who do both - they are wonderful and I thank them for both of their services. However, this is not optimal.
The dislike for the Haredim is created by those who don't understand these concepts and are so far removed from it, that they'll never get it. It's not the Haredim who need to change their way of life - it's others who need to be educated.
Listen, good Jews, when David and Shaul led our army, all the men wore tefilin and they were all holy and pure and completely observant of mitzvot. There is no comparison between the Jewish army of Tanach times and today. The IDF not only has Beduin and Druze and Xians (even missionaries), just the other day there was an article about it being the most "gay friendly" army in the world. We already know they are pushing an agenda and targeting our daughters, now, too. They say as much - how that they will gradually wean them away from their "extremism" in the army. Reports have shown that army manpower is not used efficiently and that they even turn some people away from combat units which are popular and fill up quickly and give make-work to others just so they can serve. Moshe Feiglin has outlined a plan for a volunteer army. The only reason to keep the draft and to expand it is that the army is used as a social change agent, to "integrate" Jews into the 'Israeli' ethos. And that's the real reason they want chareidim to pass through it and why they won't consider the cost-saving measures and manpower efficiency of a volunteer army. It's the sacred cow of the chilonim.
Now, it's time to say something else that's not popular. Anti-Torah, anti-Jewish, hate-filled, self-proclaimed chiloni 'Jews' who hold nothing else sacred are not our brothers. They have cut themselves off from the community. They are in outright rebellion against G-d and are set on destroying Israel as a "Jewish" state in favor of it being a "democratic state. IT CAN'T BE BOTH! Torah (written and oral) tells us exactly how to relate to them. You will not find "ahavat chinam" in the Torah - it's as out of balance as sinat chinam and can be just as damaging in its own way.
My oldest son was in the first group of the Netzach Yehudah. At first all was well and then slowly, slowly, Mincha was late, then not at all. There were ongoing kashrut issues int he kitchen. The soldiers were religious, but their commanders were not. Everything slid downhill. He finished basic training and then went awol during the base transfer after they put him on a bus and set him down alone with a rifle and NO BULLETS in a heavily Arab area to walk on to his base. After weeks, I convinced him to turn himself in and I went with him and watched him be taken away to jail. It was the only way out. he was never the same again.
My second son reported for induction and told them he wanted to serve (and he did - in a real Jewish army), but he informed them that he could not and would not abide by the rules of engagement (which incidentally got Gilad Shalit kidnapped). He told them if an Arab threatened his life, he would kill him first, so they told him they didn't want him - too much trouble.
We've all heard the stories about what the secular Zionists did to the religious Mizrachi Jews in the early days of the state, but they've never stopped. They tried to get my sons to stop wearing their kippot when we first arrived in the absorption center almost 20 years ago and when I started covering my hair, I was sent for "counseling."
The day had to come when there would be a parting of the ways between those who are serious with Hashem and those who are playing at being religious for family or cultural reasons.
Do you seriously think Mashiach's army will be "gay friendly" and be filled with goyim?
"Is what they called for more Torah learning and prayer not considered Heshbon Hanefesh in your eyes?"
It can be, in itself, if after Cheshbon Nefesh, you conclude that your trouble is coming from a lack of learning, or a lack of prayer. I think, though, that this is not the case here. I could elaborate, but history shows you would not let my comment stand.
Madaral,
You're probably right about the last thing you said. :-)
Yaak, you're getting a workout here. :-)
Yeah, Neshama, it comes with the territory. :-) The Internet - by its very nature - has less Haredim than non-Haredim to defend my position, so yes, as usual, I'm getting a workout. Hopefully, people will take what I say to heart.
Devash, thanks for your interesting post. For some reason, I didn't see it earlier as it didn't get emailed to me. Strange. Anyways, the army can be scary religiously. I'm sorry you had to find that out the hard way and I hope they improve things over there.
Amazing, what do you think about this?
Haredim are planning a "Million Man" anti-draft protest on Sunday, March 9 – even though several senior haredi politicians and a spokesman for the most senior haredi rabbi all admit the proposed draft law is good for haredim. "If there is too much praise [for law by haredim, because it exempts them from most of what they should be obligated for], someone will want to change [the law] before it reaches the Knesset plenum [for its final votes]," MK Rabbi Moshe Gafni of the Ashkenazi haredi United Torah Judaism Party said in explaining why haredi leaders were lashing out against the government.
Neshama, where is your source for that?
Yaak - That was already 13 years ago, but when I came to Israel as a new convert 20 years ago before the internet, let me tell how much I learned the hard way. I did not know there was such a thing as a secular Jew. I did not know that Yesha was never annexed to Israel. I did not know that Arabs sat in the knesset. All I really knew of Jewish history was what I read in the Tanach. I just knew I loved HKB"H and would follow Him anywhere. I loved His Land and His people and His Torah because He does. And there is nothing that could ever convince me to let go of any of it.
Neshama,
Seriously? Failed Messiah is your source? (Thanks, Google)
OK - after checking it out on his site and going to the Mikveh afterwards (j/k), I've seen every headline of Kikar Hashabat and do not recall one saying that Haredi MKs praised this legislation. If you can show me this Kikar article, I'd be interested in seeing it. Nevertheless, even if true, it is all irrelevant since the Gedolei Hador all spoke saying that the legislation is bad, which is the obvious correct opinion.
Devash, amazing. You have enacted Lechteich Aharai Bamidbar Be'eretz Lo Zeru'ah. (Again, I didn't get an email for your comment.)
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/555/578.html?hp=1&cat=479&loc=9
Yes, Madaral, of course it could have been much worse, but that doesn't mean we should be happy with what we got. This could have been a lot much better too - if they would have dropped quotas and criminal sanctions.
We could also say the Disengagement could have been much worse. Sharon could have dismantled 50 more Yishuvim in Yosh too. That doesn't mean we should be happy with the outcome there either.
From all the comments here, aside from Yaak, must give a tremendous Yasher Koach to Devash. As usual, her comments are awe inspiring and always, always on target. Please read her Tomer Devorah blog - excellent. Cannot understand how so many of our people still do not understand what is really going on and what is behind this whole charade of conscription for the chareidim. Open your eyes; it is all about the secularization of the chareidim in Israel. The Erev Rav are doing everything they can to make Israel a country of its citizens, where secular Jews will just be part of the mix. Everything Devash wrote in her first comment above is pure truth! Wake up. It's not really that difficult to understand. We pray that the Gdolim with their chareidim will be mutzlachim at their Prayer Rally.
Sorry, couldn't get back til now.
The real source was Israel Hayom. (which you would have seen the link also)
And on the Golus comparison, I was alluding to "tactics" ... Such as those used in the first Beir Shemesh election and their (misleading and spurious) hasbara afterwards!
I like to know what "the other side" is saying also. Truth can be found 'hidden' in many places.
here's the Israel Hayom link:
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=15709
This should also be interesting to your open minded readers,
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Some-8000-ultra-Orthodox-students-to-study-in-higher-education-institutions-next-year-343536
With this govt I see a genuine willingness to help and accommodate, the Haredim. This should not be taken lightly.
Assuming you buy into the lie that "higher education" is a positive thing. Look, Neshama, they promise a lot of things until you're hooked in and then they do as they damn well please.
The whole idea of running an entire generation through the university system comes straight out of the West and why? Three reasons: 1) It's a money-making business, 2) It enslaves a whole generation to student debt, 3) It's a huge brain-washing machine.
Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi goes as far as to say that it isn't even necessary for professionals who in the past were trained one-on-one with a senior professional in his field. It has another economic and social aspect as well. It delays the entry of workers into the workforce (who can;t get jobs) and it delays marriage for young, fertile women.
I had to go to nursing school in a college, but when I was growing up, nurses were trained by hospitals. When I got out of college, I had a lot of nonsense information that was required to graduate, but I was not ready to practice nursing because the time had been devoted to non-related studies. Our professors said, oh, don't worry, you'll learn the practical aspects your first year on the job. Your employer expects that. Oh, yeah, and I had a student loan to pay, too. A general religion class was required and that professor absolutely destroyed the belief in G-d of some of the weaker-minded students, but then that was what it was designed to do.
This is another whole subject for debate, but if you think this is a positive development, maybe your thinking has been a bit assimilated in this area without your realizing it. All of us are vulnerable. Our minds are at risk at all times.
Anonymous, thanks for your support. Hope I didn't just lose it.
I got a PhD in theoretical physics, and that is just about the best thing that ever happened to me.
Devash, with all the negative experiences I've had in life, I've learned to accept that all is from Shomayim and utilize the distillation for the good. That has shaped my outlook. I prefer not to project out of anger.
HaShem works in mysterious ways, and we should defer to Him.
If you are implying there's anger in my replies, you are wrong. Hopefully, we learn from own mistakes and teach the next generation how to avoid repeating them. It's not about acceptance, it's about tikun.
Believe you can make it better.
madaral - you rest my case. ;-)
Very good what was brought out here about the universities. If that is not an understood by now, then what is. Universities are literally notorious for their brainwashing. I suggest to people who want to send their children to learn a profession or trade, send them to a vocational school. At least 90% of professors are radicals and their purpose is to brainwash. That is why we have the most dumb downed generation yet. The universities have always been dens of immorality, but never as much as today. reuven
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