Friday, March 12, 2010

Latest Hurva Links

Arutz Sheva: Video: First Visit to the Rebuilt Hurva Synagogue

Wall Street Journal:In the Holy Land, a Rebuilding for the Generations

Arutz Sheva: Hurva to Reopen After 62 Years – Without Netanyahu

Elder of Ziyon: PalArabs seething and inciting over Hurva Synagogue

Sky News: Israel Seals Off West Bank Amid Riot Fears

Update:

Arutz Sheva: Rabbi Rabinowitz Ask Muslims Not to Riot at Hurva Event

Kikar Shabbat has a bunch of pictures from the Hachnasat Sefer Torah (hat tip: Rafi)

14 Comments:

At Fri Mar 12, 11:59:00 AM 2010, Blogger joshwaxman said...

i wonder whether the modern Sabbateans are as excited over the rebuilding of their shul...

kt,
josh

 
At Fri Mar 12, 12:20:00 PM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

Where is your source for this?

Wikipedia says:
In the winter of 1700, a group of around 500 Ashkenazim led by Rabbi Judah he-Hasid arrived from Europe.[4] They were mystics who were intent on advancing the arrival of the Messianic Era by settling in Jerusalem and leading ascetic lives.[11]

Can you point to a source that says they were Sabateans?

Besides the historical aspect, it's irrelevant to me since whenever I see ירושלים הבנויה, I get excited.

 
At Fri Mar 12, 02:10:00 PM 2010, Blogger Neshama said...

Oh, Josh, Oh, Josh, Josh oh...............!

Yaak - Just so very uplifting. A nice erev Shabbos treat. May i ask, and do you know, will there be any decorations on the outside of the Shul?

 
At Fri Mar 12, 02:28:00 PM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

I would assume not as they are apparently done with the work and I haven't seen any decorations on the outside in any of the pictures I've seen.

 
At Sat Mar 13, 07:42:00 PM 2010, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"Rabbi Judah he-Hasid"

was a Sabbatean. He is not the famous one you are thinking of.

you are thinking of:
Judah ben Samuel of Regensburg (12th-13th centuries), the initiator of the Chassidei Ashkenaz movement

but since, as you write, this was "In the winter of 1700", the fellow is:
Judah he-Hasid (Jerusalem) (around 1650-1700), a Sabbatean preacher who led the largest organized group of Jewish immigrants to the Land of Israel in centuries.

read about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_he-Hasid_(Jerusalem)

that last article discusses the Hurva synagogue.

:)

hope this helps.
kt,
josh

 
At Sat Mar 13, 10:21:00 PM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

Of course, Josh, I know that this is not the same R' Yehuda HeHasid of Sefer Hasidim fame.

But to say he was Sabbatean? If your proof is from that Wikipedia article, it's not a proof, as the article merely says:

In addition, some of the newcomers were suspected to be Sabbateans,[3] whom the local Jews viewed with hostility.

The words "some", "newcomers" and "suspected" cast doubt on your claim.

Any other proofs?

 
At Sun Mar 14, 12:29:00 AM 2010, Blogger joshwaxman said...

i haven't researched him in great detail; but i wasn't basing myself on the wikipedia article, but some other sources (i can't recall which at the moment).

here are two other mentions, which are less wishy-washy in labeling him a Sabbatean:
http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?/topic/44845-hurva-synagogue-in-jerusalem/
http://www.vosizneias.com/44059/2009/11/30/jerusalem-if-the-vilna-gaon-was-right-the-3rd-bies-hamikdash-is-on-its-way/

one of which refers to some article labeling him such.

and apparently Rav Yaakov Emden referred to him "Reb Yehuda Chosid Shoteh".

Even the Wikipedia article used to explicitly label him such, stating: "Judah he-Hasid ( Yehudah he-Hasid, "Judah the Pious") (around 1650, Siedlce - October 17, 1700, Jerusalem), was a Jewish Sabbatean preacher who led the..."

It was since changed. (intermediate versions say "may have secretly believed", so it looks like a series of edits, where the people editing were not able to produce strong evidence in that direction, or else supporters of the claim weren't interested in editing back and forth.)

This article
http://www.springerlink.com/index/T7Q4314201531508.pdf
makes reference to those moving there as followers of Shabbtai Tzvi, trying to force God's hand in bringing back the mashiach. (=Shabtai Tzvi, for a second coming, 24 years after his death, based on some calculations they had, as I've read elsewhere).

it also seems that Yehuda he-Chasid's brother-in-law was a closet Sabbatean:
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/messiah/other-historically-significant-jewish-messiah-claimants.html
"Another, Isaiah Hasid (a brother-in-law of the Shabbethaian Judah Hasid), who lived in Mannheim, secretly claimed to be the resurrected Messiah, although publicly he had abjured Shabbethaian beliefs."

the clearest (though debatable) evidence is in this book. Read the paragraph beginning with "Hayim ben Shlomo".

According to this paragraph, Chayim ben Shlomo was an overt Sabbatean, who studied under Sabbatean teachers. He met with Yehuda he-Chassid, and worked with him to found the Society of the Pious, and to arrange the millennial journey in 1700 to Israel. When Yehuda he-Chassid died, many of the Sabbateans of the group took Chayim ben Shlomo as their leader. So these followers were not just "suspected" of being Sabbateans, as the Wikipedia article imples. They were Sabbateans; at least a good many of them. And Yehuda Hachassid knew this, and the motivations, and cooperated with them.

If so, given the familial relationship with a Sabbatean, Rav Yaakov's Emden's seeming condemnation as a Sabbatean, his the Sabbatean motivations of many of those who traveled to Eretz Yisrael at that time, and the cooperation and founding of the movement and travel to Eretz Yisrael with an overt Sabbatean, and the "suspicions" (at least) of those already living in Eretz Yisrael the likelihood that Yehuda He-Chassid was indeed a Sabbatean, whether overt or closeted, does seem to increase.

kol tuv,
josh

 
At Sun Mar 14, 01:58:00 AM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

Still not the greatest evidence in the world, but alright, let's assume for a moment he was a Sabbatean. As I said before, it's irrelevant. I can name you 10 reasons why we should support rebuilding the Hurva shul anyways:

1) It's a part of Jewish history that should be restored

2) The Gr"a's students raised its Kedusha (By the way, this year marks the bicentennial of their arrival)

3) To show the Arabs that whatever they destroy will be rebuilt

4) It may be a precursor to the building of the Beit Hamikdash (even Haaretz agrees).

5) As I mentioned before, whenever I see ירושלים הבנויה, I get excited, and so should everyone.

6) Any synagogue anywhere lying in ruins is never a good thing.

7) Just its name itself invokes memories of oppression of the Jews, so while such a building is lying in ruins, we can only cry.

8) The Dome of the Rock should not be the only tall structure in the Old City.

9) For just its artistic value alone, one could say Dayeinu.

10) Because we waited 62 years for such a day

 
At Sun Mar 14, 01:05:00 PM 2010, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"why we should support rebuilding the Hurva shul anyways"
it is going to be built with or without our support; the question is whether we should see this as an important step in the upcoming redemption, and whether we should excite ourselves into a frenzy over it.

there is something "off" in putting our messianic hopes in the rebuilding of something first established by those with heretical (and possibly idolatrous) notions which arose in the first place as a result of misguided, unchecked and frenzied messianic hopes. this despite what the Gra *purportedly* said (and only perhaps is understood correctly).

"1) It's a part of Jewish history that should be restored"
would you restore Yerovam's temple in Bet El? it is Jewish history.

perhaps elsewhere, how the Gra didn't necessarily say this, and even if he did, a rather reasonable alternate interpretation.

were previous Gra geulah predictions realized?

kt,
josh

 
At Sun Mar 14, 11:53:00 PM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

Too much cleaning to do to answer earlier.

the question is whether we should see this as an important step in the upcoming redemption, and whether we should excite ourselves into a frenzy over it.
Excited, yes. Into a frenzy, no. You seem to have this constant worry that I'm promoting the next Shabbetai Tzvi when I get excited over something. Take a chill, Josh. I'm doing nothing of the sort, nor will it snowball into anything of the sort.

there is something "off" in putting our messianic hopes in the rebuilding of something first established by those with heretical (and possibly idolatrous) notions which arose in the first place as a result of misguided, unchecked and frenzied messianic hopes.
I guess that we are unable to put our Messianic hopes into the State of Israel, which was first established by the early Zionists, who were heretics. I didn't realize that you share the Satmar Rebbe's opinion on this.
And anyways, I'm not putting "hopes" in this. I hope solely in Hashem. This is, however, a possible sign of things to come.

"1) It's a part of Jewish history that should be restored"
would you restore Yerovam's temple in Bet El? it is Jewish history.

הכי השתא! One is Avoda Zara. One is misguided. No comparison.

perhaps elsewhere, how the Gra didn't necessarily say this, and even if he did, a rather reasonable alternate interpretation.
You may be right, but you may not. Let's err on the side that he said it and meant it since the benefits outweigh the problems. That said, it must be done cautiously.

were previous Gra geulah predictions realized?
That one can possibly still come true. Its interpretation to mean last year is all that did not.

 
At Mon Mar 15, 08:27:00 AM 2010, Anonymous Jewish Ideas Daily said...

An interesting article on the history of the Hurva synagogue can be read at http://www.jewishideasdaily.com/content/module/2010/3/15/main-feature/1/the-messianic-aliyah

 
At Mon Mar 15, 01:22:00 PM 2010, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"Take a chill, Josh."
i'm overstating the case for effect.

"One is Avoda Zara. One is misguided. No comparison."
Standard Sabbatean kabbalah placed Shabtai Tzvi as one of the sefirot -- Tiferes, IIRC. they thus progressed from merely saying yechi to believing "Boreinu".

"That said, it must be done cautiously."
agreed.

"since the benefits outweigh the problems"
that's where we differ, i think.

"You may be right, but you may not."
I'm not sure how the chronology works out.

early 1700: the churva shul was built.
1721: it was destroyed.
1720: vilna gaon was born
1797: vilna gaon died
1808: disciples of the gra arrived
1864: disciples rebuilt the churva (or finished rebuilding it)
1948: churva destroyed second time

when would the Gra say this? why comment on a shul in a distant land, which was destroyed when he was 1 years old? why would it be of any importance to him?

furthermore, the talmidei hagra hoped to rebuild the churva shul for the *second* time. and they were hoping for mashiach to come. did they really build it with the knowledge that this was the *second* building, and that the work of their hands would be destroyed, and then rebuilt later? did they hope, all their lives, for the Churva synagogue to be destroyed, so as to advance the geulah? and did they really attribute this to the Gra? doesn't this sound a little bit "off" to you?!

where is the written source for all of this?

kt,
josh

 
At Mon Mar 15, 01:32:00 PM 2010, Blogger joshwaxman said...

in terms of written sources, while i did not see it in the talmidei hagra (do you know of a source for this?), i did find a source for someone who came up with this "independently", not relying on a statement of the talmidei hagra citing the gra.
http://www.jewishmag.com/4MAG/ISRAEL/israel.htm

in 1997, the Jewish Magazine published an article by Dovid Rossoff. He ended that article with:
"An interesting twist of fate also took place. The Israeli government chose to leave the Churvah in ruins rather than rebuild it. So today we are once again waiting. Just as the Temple was destroyed twice, so was the Churvah. And just and the third Temple will stand forever, so let it be that the Churvah's rebuilding will likewise stand forever."

it seems likely that this was conflated with "Basing himself on the Gra's mystical teachings, his most accomplished student, and leader of the Jerusalem community, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Mishklov, was of the conviction that the completion of a certain Jerusalem synagogue, known as the Churva, was an essential roadmark on the path toward redemption."

but that was back on its *second* building! and nothing about it being destroyed and rebuilt. that, i would guess, was from the Jewish Mag article.

we should consider what evidence we have based on likelihood and improbabilities which near impossibilities, rather than desired outcome...

all the best,
josh

 
At Mon Mar 15, 03:09:00 PM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

Here's where I first talked about the Hurva.

Read what is written there.

Why near impossibilities? Did Daniel not know that the second Beit Hamikdash would be destroyed?

 

Post a Comment

<< Home