Thursday, January 03, 2013

Sanctity of Marriage in Illinois Under Attack

The Trib and SunTimes say that the Illinois Senate is planning to vote on granting two men and two women the right to "marry".  If it passes, and then passes the Illinois House, the governor said he will sign it into law. This law is immoral, vehemently anti-Torah, and just plain idiotic.

Why do I care?  Shouldn't we let people live as they choose?  Why must government intrude on people's rights?

I'm all for government not intruding on people's rights.  And that is precisely why I am against this bill.

You see, I have a right to live in a moral society and I have a right to live in a safe society.  Society is immoral enough, we need to go the extra step and legislate immorality?  The moment immorality becomes law, bad things start to happen.  It then becomes unsafe, לא עלינו.

May Hashem show the elected officials of Illinois the fallacy of the bill and may it not see the light of day on the governor's desk.


57 Comments:

At Thu Jan 03, 04:58:00 AM 2013, Blogger Shimshon said...

I have a right to live in a moral society and I have a right to live in a safe society.

You actually have no such right. You do have a right to defend yourself (which the state has robbed you of, if you are unable to arm yourself to do so).

The truth is, government SHOULDN'T intrude on marriage. Marriage is, certainly from the goyish perspective (and seeing as you live chu"l...) a religious rite. Just because the government puts its imprimatur on it, doesn't make it marriage. In fact, licensed marriage is tainted from the start, as its insistence on insinuating itself into the private affairs of two individuals was to prevent interracial coupling. Get rid of it altogether! You won't stop two men from living together, but that's happening already, and you seem to have less problem with that than a meaningless piece of paper.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 07:52:00 AM 2013, Blogger 10rainbow said...

i disagree with you. y yaccov has every right to want to live in a moral and safe society as i , a noahide, do. and we noahides are also taught that same morality and many jews are reaching out to gentiles to teach them the 7 laws, which many of us, including myself had never heard off until the net came. please remember yitro was a gentile and there is a whole parshat in his name. and for honoring his father, a gentile son is also mentioned in the talmud and there are many such examples. a mistake is bad enough, but legalising it is worse. i am surprised you dont seem to see the difference. we noahides are also G-d's creations, and commanded to set up a fair and just justice system. please remember that israel has a G-d given job to do. and that is being the light to all nations. if you dont want to adhere to that commandment of Hashem's, by all means step aside, there are many jews who are doing that work. and they face enough problems from the non jews without you adding to the list.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 09:07:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Thank you, 10rainbow.

I would also like to respond to Shimshon.

I equate my rights with government's responsibilities. Government has the responsibility to first and foremost keep us safe. Government, as evidenced by the FCC rules and laws against public nudity, also has the responsibility to keep society moral.

Regarding your preference of ridding society of marriage altogether, I wholeheartedly disagree. Once you do that, society goes down the toilet. Jews will copy their non-Jewish neighbors in this and everything falls apart. The first Rambam in Hilchot Ishut explains society before Matan Torah. I hope you don't want - even the non-Jewish society - to go down that road again.

Both the idea of living together and the piece of paper (which is not meaningless) are terrible. One affects those people themselves, while the other affects the entire society (as per Bereishit Rabba on the flood). I hope you can tell me which is worse.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 09:08:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dov, now it your turn to comment, please say a few words.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 09:38:00 AM 2013, Blogger Shimshon said...

Wow, you guys are clueless.

1. Who said anything about getting rid of marriage?! I said, get rid of marriage LICENCES. A state-issued piece of paper is 100% meaningless. It's not a ketubah, folks. It's trash. Or are you saying that we, as Jews, don't need a ketubah to cohabit? All we need is holy writ (sarcasm, if you didn't know) from the STATE? Are you kidding me?

The original intent for marriage licenses in the US was to prevent interracial marriages. Before that, no such thing even existed. People would laugh at the concept. Marriage was a RELIGIOUS rite that had absolutely nothing to do with the government.

2. Regarding rights, I never said you had no right to WANT to live in a moral society. Go ahead, want away! You have no control, none whatsoever, over others. Laws don't mean anything, otherwise there would be no theft or murder (and Chicago is now the murder capital of the US). All you can do is act in a moral manner yourself, and help influence other individuals to act in a more moral manner, thus creating the society you think you have a right to live in.

The FCC? Really, you are investing a secular, governmental institution with MORAL AUTHORITY? Seriously? Is secular law about moralism? There seems to be plenty of filth not only on the air, but in every other form of entertainment as well. Gee, the FCC says it's okay, so it's moral. If they choose not to regular it (they don't regulate movies or video games), is it moral then? Is that your logic there?

Morality PRECEDES government. The American Founding Fathers even understood this. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams said that. I think time has proven this out. The Constitution itself is only as good as the people who are supposed to uphold it. That's not even being done in the breach today. It's a dead letter. America is rapidly descending into a police state where no one seems much bothered that state officials routinely sexually molest Americans when they travel, all in the name of safety.

Society is not some amorphous blob distinct from the individuals that comprise it. It is a reflection of them. So, to demand (or even expect) that it be "moral" or "safe" is stupid.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 11:40:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Talk about clueless.

A state-issued marriage license is halachicly meaningless as far as Jews are concerned, but it does hold weight as far as society in general is concerned. It is part of the 7 Mitzvot to set up courts of law, including laws that govern marriage.

The idea of a marriage document was instituted way before the US government existed, way before John Adams. This is proven by the Midrash I quoted above and the gemara in Hulin 92 that talk about such documents AND GIVE EXTREME IMPORTANCE TO THEM.

Regarding your assertion that "laws don't mean anything", again those same 2 sources that I quoted above GIVE EXTREME IMPORTANCE TO THEM.

I agree that the FCC is not as moral as I or you would like it to be, but it's better than nothing, you'd have to admit.

For a Ron Paul supporter to call me clueless is the epitome of hutzpa.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 03:02:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think homosexual marriage is just the thin edge of a very thin wedge; the next thing will be on variations of a number of men, animals, posessions, women, even children (it's their culture/religion you know, so respect it!).

Things have to be this way, there has to be total lawlessness (bitter) so that the Torah going forth from Tzyon will be sweet kate b

 
At Thu Jan 03, 03:10:00 PM 2013, Blogger Shimshon said...

I meant that laws are meaningless in this way: There are laws against murder and theft, and yet murder and theft happen all the time. Only moral people actually follow the law. Well, some people follow the law simply because they're afraid of being caught. But clearly, the criminally inclined simply don't care what the law says, or that there is even a law to begin with. Even further, law in the US (and elsewhere) more often punishes the INNONCENT and LAW-ABIDING than genuine criminals. You live in Chicago, right? Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. So, those who need guns, the law-abiding (to protect themselves against criminals), will be jailed for daring to defy the law, rather than take a chance being killed (by an illegal gun, no less) by a criminal. You, the innocent, will be vilified and harassed, all using the law you so uphold.

I know the Gemara talks about marriage documents issued for homosexual unions before the flood. It doesn't say WHO issued those documents, does it?

You are ignorant of American history. You are complaining about the state issuing so-called marriage licenses to these people. But marriage did not originate with the state, but Hashem! Historically, it was religious institutions that were responsible for overseeing it, not the state, period. I even said, many times, that the state insinuated itself into the religious institution of marriage (at least in the US) to prohibit interracial marriages. You keep ignoring this very important point over and over. It doesn't matter that this has changed. The point is, the state intervened in marriage to impose its own policies. It did it then. It's doing it now (with same-sex marriages). The state getting out of the marriage license business doesn't mean the end of marriage. In fact, it would revitalize it. Certainly, the Catholic church agrees with you. Exiting the marriage business also means getting out of the divorce business. Things like no-fault divorce are far more damaging to society than a few perverts getting a piece of paper from the state that says they are "married." You are clueless.

The FCC is not moral at all. At best, like I've said also, they are a REFLECTION of society, and therefore its standards are malleable and change with the times. There was no state regulation of movie content back in the day, and yet virtually any movie before the 1970s was (relatively) clean and devoid of foul language, due to entirely voluntary codes that the Hollywood studios of the day followed. Things actually only got worse with the adoption of the MPAA rating system (another voluntary code) in the late 60s (hey, we can now make an "edgy" movie and no one will complain, as we'll just say you have to be 17 to see it - as if that makes it okay).

As a Jew, and a guest, you should know better than to tell your hosts how to live, especially in a country like America, that has welcomed Jews like no other. If you have a problem, come to Israel. Marriage is still firmly in the hand of the rabbinate, and I would put money on same-sex marriages never happening here. Undoubtedly, you will be safer too (Chicago is the murder capital of the US, as I pointed out above).

 
At Thu Jan 03, 03:20:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://matzav.com/rav-lichtenstein-soften-attitude-in-dealing-with-toeivah

I notice that fiery words invariably come from people whose mouth still stinks of the cheeseburgers with bacon and shrimps they and their fathers ate until yesterday. This is obvious, because we were taught as children and it's engraved into our minds that Sodom was destroyed because of completely different sins. Blaming it on homosexuality is a xian idea.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 04:01:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 04:03:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

The Gemorrah in Chulin 92: There are two negative commandments that if a gentile society crosses into that zone, they break the basic code in common decency that they have with G-d: 1. They will not sell human flesh in the market place
2. They will not give ketubot to male homosexuals.

Chulin is usually translated as mundane Shechitah. But it also means...Sandys. So far there have been two such Sandys in states that grant marriage contracts and Civil Union Contracts to homosexuals. Yet, Maryland, Maine, and Washington State have just joined in on all the fun by popular vote. As far as Civil Union Contracts in states like New Jersey and Illinois, I am only referring to such contracts where the only difference between the contract is the name Civil Union or marriage. To say that this does not matter is to deny the validity of this Gemorrah in "Sandys".

 
At Thu Jan 03, 04:12:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dov Bar-Leib, I notice that according to your opinion Hitler abided by your basic code in common decency. He did not permit sale of human flesh in the marketplace and (forget about civil marriage) he sent homosexuals to ovens, in fact, the same ovens where he sent rabbis and chachamim.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 04:19:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Uh, excuse me, Hitler yemach shmo made bars of soap out of human flesh fats and then sold them. And he did not respect the Torah either which is the one positive commandment for the gentiles. By the way so did Hamas after the 2006 Hamas/ Hezbollah war. They sold the body parts of Israeli soldiers to the highest bidder. It is just that one side decays into pure hatred. And America is decaying on the side of Free Love.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 04:52:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Here is a map of the US according to how the various states view same sex marriages and Civil Unions. If you want to move away from the makom sakanah of living with gentiles and liberal Jews who have no problem with ketubot for homosexuals, then stay away from any state with blue in it. Dark blue is very bad. Lighter blues can be just as bad. Red and dark red are the best for avoiding the danger from this particular abomination. If you are not going to make Aliyah, at least move to Cleveland, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, St. Louis, Memphis, and other places where there are thriving Jewish communities without this problem. By the way, Cleveland has an excellent system of Jewish schools and of course the Telshe Yeshivah. Or contact Rav Ariel Bar Tzadok in Eastern Tennessee to join his kosher community in the midst of a large community of Noachides. South Florida is also fine because most of the state is very conservative. The three beach counties in South Florida are therefore protected from their own stupid inclination to be no different than the Northeast. Yet, South Florida has its own unique set of problems.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 04:56:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Sorry, the map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States

 
At Thu Jan 03, 05:32:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It looks like you are not aware that the soap story was a nazi fabrication and is now being exploited by negationists. How nice of you to keep repeating it. Also very interesting that you would find it more deplorable to turn human bodies into soap than to butcher in cold blood many tens of millions of human souls that used to dwell inside those bodies.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 06:05:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

All of the Noachide precepts are sacrosanct. Pre-meditated mass genocide is obviously the worst crime that can be perpetrated. The Gemorrah in Sandys does not mention that crime though. So what is it about the two crimes that are mentioned that awaken HaShem's ire? These two particular crimes remove G-d's protection from that place, and He sends His destroyer to bring an end to such places. The Satan has free reign as places that perpetuate those two crimes lose all the protection of the merit of previous generations. Mass murder requires human courts to execute the murderers. Yet, as we see after WW2, places like Brazil that took in the mass murderers prospered because Divine protection did not leave the place because of their crime of receiving the Rats from the Rat Line. We are supposed to find murder reprehensible. The Gemorah in Chulin describes a situation where G-d Himself takes action to destroy the place when earthly courts take no action.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 06:09:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Yet, as we see after WW2, places like Brazil that took in the mass murderers prospered because Divine protection did not leave the place in spite of their crime of receiving the Rats from the Rat Line.

just changed the word because to "in spite of"

 
At Thu Jan 03, 07:11:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am pleased you are finally conceding that premeditated mass murder and genocide are worse sins than homosexuality. Refuah Shleima.

 
At Thu Jan 03, 09:02:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rashi says (Parashat Noah) "Gezel" is the worst sin and without it, it is like a closed boxed with sins, once "gezel comes to a place the box of all sins are opening now" and destruction comes to the world.
In my opinion it does not matter which countries legalized those marriages, important that almost everywhere those mishuganos are doing that with each other. Even in Israel it is not legalezed(Baruh Hashem), but still tumah from zera levatala it is in the land. So we have to pray that "gezel" comes to a place where you live and in the world.

--Tsaddik Nistar

 
At Thu Jan 03, 09:04:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I meant " So we have to pray that "gezel" NEVER comes to a place where you live and in the world."

 
At Fri Jan 04, 12:40:00 AM 2013, Blogger Shimshon said...

If you took the state out of the marriage racket, who would issue "ketubot" to same-sex couples? The Catholic church? Obviously not. Any of the Orthodox (eg Greek, Armenian, etc) churches? No. Mormons? No. In fact, a few inconsequential churches would "bless" such unions, thereby negating your entire argument. And once a church embraces perversion like that, their membership drops like a stone because, no surprise, most people don't like it. They may accept the existence of homosexuality, but that doesn't mean they want to promote it or do anything other than tolerate it. These people would pair up, no differently than they do now, and get their licenses from churches nobody else cares about or belongs to. Keep the state involved, and as someone else pointed out, eventually the state will license any union, including between man and animal.

Homesexuality is an increasing problem even in the charedi world, and I know of at least one baal teshuva yeshiva where a number of the students are gay, and some of the students do act on the impulse. Stop picking on the goyim, most of whom agree with you anyway (even if they are just as ignorant as you about the history of state-issued licenses and dumbfounded as you on the idea of getting the state out of it altogether), and worry about your fellow Jews.

 
At Fri Jan 04, 01:07:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dov Bar-Leib said...
so we need moshiach now & jews should help world
how does Nazi soap bring moshiach///???

 
At Fri Jan 04, 01:08:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dov Bar-Leib

 
At Fri Jan 04, 09:38:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Shimshon, you make some valid points, but you seem to want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. A nuanced approach is much better.

Your approach, as appealing as it is - especially if this law is passed - will make things much worse for society, IMHO. As less people in the world are becoming religious, less people will view marriage as an option. Already, we have a decline in people getting married - if you take away the state-issued license, that number will plummet, IMHO, as no one will even view marriage itself worth any value. At least now, they will consider its value. If this bill passes, its value does get diminished, but one has to consider all the secular straight people out there. If Haza"l said that a state-issued license has value, it has value. The question is: how much value if this bill is passed? It's close to nil, but not nil.

 
At Fri Jan 04, 09:57:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

To Anonymous 3:20, who wrote:
http://matzav.com/rav-lichtenstein-soften-attitude-in-dealing-with-toeivah

WADR to Rav Lichtenstein, who is an Adam Gadol, I tend to follow other gedolim who outflank and outnumber him and say differently.

I notice that fiery words invariably come from people whose mouth still stinks of the cheeseburgers with bacon and shrimps they and their fathers ate until yesterday.

This statement is outrageous. It shows an utter disrespect for Ba'alei Teshuva, whose level cannot be reached by FFBs. This statement is also false, as I can pretty much attest that neither I, my father, my grandfather, or my great-grandfather ever ate cheeseburgers or shrimp. Even though I may sound like a Ba'al Teshuva on my blog, I am an FFB. Furthermore, the Aguda is full of FFBs.

This is obvious, because we were taught as children and it's engraved into our minds that Sodom was destroyed because of completely different sins. Blaming it on homosexuality is a xian idea.

Who even mentioned Sedom? I was talking about the flood! But, regarding Sedom, when it says הוציאם אלינו ונדעה אותם, how do you learn Peshat?

 
At Fri Jan 04, 10:17:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I want to come back to Noah. That generation we know were spoiled and they did all kind of disgusting things including acts man with another man, then "gezel" came at the end and because of "gezel" Hashem destroyed the World. Only Noah with his sons and wife and dauthers inlaw were survived.
Hashem said to Noah go into Tent (Torah and Mitzvot, according to Lyubavitcer Rebbe), so we see that Torah really protects those who live according Torah.
Our beuaty that we never mix with goyim and their practice. We don't have TV's and othr garbage, we are in Yeshiva World not in America or Russia etc, We live in goyisha world till Mashiah comes and in the future we will get double reward for passing much harder tests.
There are some countries who not legalized , but they friends with those sick people and they respect them, and many of them popular. The problem is who recognize them, Baruh Hashem Am Israel have Torah and we know that even we live in this world of tests and we recognize "tumah" from "tahor" and "tahor " from "tumah".

 
At Sat Jan 05, 10:36:00 AM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

It is not going to get to the point of gezel where HaShem will have to destroy the entire world. In the Covenant between the Parts The Tor (turtledove) is Mashiach Ben Ephraim who rises as Edom is being destroyed. The Ben Yonah is called a Gozel and represents Mashiach ben David. So rather than gezel to destroy the world, we will get Mashiach ben David (the Gozel). I believe his picture is up there in the beautiful picture at the top of this blog standing on top of the bird of prey. In the interim the nations of the world will be judged some of them severely, but the World itself will not be destroyed.

So rather that destroying the entire world, Mashiach ben David will inherit it. The nations of the world of course will claim that he stole his position, for they will not understand that he merited it based on the intense suffering of Jewish history. Benevolent rulership of Mashiach ben David in short comes as a reward for all of the lives and possessions that were stolen from us. But first we have the "rough spot" of the rulership of Mashiach ben Ephraim to get through. Best to be aboard the lifeboat or ark in Eretz Yisrael for the duration. After Israeli elections in less than three weeks, who knows how the world will react if the Klal here decides to leave Esav's "plantation".

 
At Sat Jan 05, 10:40:00 AM 2013, Blogger Shimshon said...

Yaak, marriage is declining for many reasons, and the increasingly liberal interpretation of what it is is a big (but not the sole) contributor to that. Another is that it is, for men, by and large, a very bad deal. Men get screwed if the marriage goes bad. Big time. They almost always lose the kids. They fund their ex-wives' post-divorce dalliances, and all sorts of other things, and they can go to jail if they don't like it. And if the wife merely even hints at abuse, she is ipso facto believed, regardless of the absurdity of such an accusation. Men have wizened up to the raw nature of the deal and avoid it more and more.

 
At Sat Jan 05, 01:54:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

In answer to the other point that mass murder is worse than selling human flesh in the market place, one has to look at these two things that the Gemorrah in Chulin (Sandys) points out as being the final hammer blow. A civilization that engages in acts of horrendous cruelty toward its fellow man will eventually come to the point of sanctioning the sale of human flesh in the market place. And a civilization which errs on the side of Free Love and sex and says that everything goes will eventually come to the point of giving marriage and equivalent Civil Union contracts to homosexuals. The Summer of Love in 1967 brought the value of Free unstructured love onto the scene of the Western World in a very big way. For years prior to that, the movement was cooped up in San Francisco, and it sprung onto the scene of the Western World in 1967. The end result within a 50 year time frame is this final hammer blow of giving ketubot to homosexuals. At the same time that this is happening in the Lands of Edom, Yerushalayim is being rebuilt. We are now in the 47th year of both processes of moral decay in Edom and the rebirth of Yisrael in Eretz Yisrael with the rebuilding of Yerushalayim. So as the West descends into the makeh v'patish of sexual immorality, watch Yerushalayim blossom...by the 50th year 5776, the Yovel of Yovelot.

A person has to ask himself at this time in history, where does he want to be??

 
At Sat Jan 05, 02:07:00 PM 2013, Blogger david said...

FYI Houston and Dallas are in the top 10 cities in America of gays by population. The mayor of Houston is a lesbian. According to wikipedia, texas is no. 4 by population

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

btw south florida is big on gay events as well...

 
At Sat Jan 05, 02:07:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

I should point out that the 5th Admor of Sadigura just passed away. We know that it rained on the 5th of Tevet, the Jahrzeit of the 3rd Admor of Sadigura for 50 years. He had passed on in 5721 (1961). Suddenly another towering Tzaddik who said NO to joining Sharon's evil government has passed on, the 3rd Ammor's grandnephew. And suddenly it is going to pour and pour for an entire week here in Eretz Yisrael...for the entire last week of Tevet in the 5th year of this last Sabbatical cycle.

 
At Sat Jan 05, 03:29:00 PM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

And one of the reasons that this situation is continuing to deteriorate nationally in the US is because back in 2003, the US Supreme Court overturned all of Texas's sodomy laws and therefore overturned sodomy laws throughout the United States. I think that sometime this coming session the US Supreme Court will now rule whether states that do not give ketubot to homosexuals will have to start recognizing the ketubot of other states.

 
At Sat Jan 05, 07:55:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

one of the highest percentages of support for same-sex marriage in the world, with 61% of Israelis supporting civil marriage for same-sex couples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Israel , seems the majority are doing their dirty "bomb", becareful what you ask for, it may turn back to you. May be you should pack your bags or soon you can be burned because of those 61% supporters?

 
At Sat Jan 05, 08:45:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dov, what can I say? Rashi says "GEZEL".
Sanhedrin 108a; Tanhuma 4; Bereshit Rabbah 31:3-4. The sentence of destruction was sealed because of robbery.

And the answer for what you wrote in your first sentence:
"It is not going to get to the point of gezel where HaShem will have to destroy the entire world."
like I said before, it almost everywhere in the whole world, those mishuganos are doing that with each other, so the problem not in legalization but in action itself where it take place, and it take place everywhere, including in your place where you live.

Stop guessing about Mashiah and Yovel where we lost the count and telling us where we want to be by that time.

Thank you to anon 7:55 PM to get right to the point.

--Tsaddik Nistar

 
At Sat Jan 05, 10:19:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

That does not mean that "gezel" will take place again and WW3 will take place for the destruction of the world. We hold that Gog U Magog finished during WW2 where the "gezera" was from the blood and could not be changed for the good. Now we will face other tests before Mashiah comes, called "Emuna" test and many will loss their hope to see unusual things and think that there is no G-d (G-d forbid).

--Tsaddik Nistar

 
At Sun Jan 06, 12:43:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Tzaddik Nistar,

Gezel is mentioned by Midrash as something that sealed their fate. So is writing marriage documents for males and animals.

We have no choice but to accept both opinions as valid.

 
At Sun Jan 06, 01:16:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Just to update you on what's going on in Illinois now:

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) — The stalling of Illinois' gay-marriage push — at least for now — shows the difficulty of approving legislation to legalize it, even with a nudge from the home-state president, steadily rising support in the polls and national momentum from the November elections.

Democrats control both chambers of the General Assembly and the governor's office in the solidly blue state. Yet the margin of support Senate Democrats were able to pull together for a bill last week was so thin that a death in one lawmaker's family and another senator's extended trip to Israel were enough to push the issue into the next legislative session.

...

One suburban Chicago Republican, Sen. Suzi Schmidt, was absent because her mother died, while Democratic Sen. Jeffrey Schoenberg was overseas for his daughter's bat mitzvah and Democratic Sen. James Clayborne had a family emergency.

 
At Sun Jan 06, 06:27:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You say you are FFB and you find it hard to do Daf Yomi which you quit. Are you 14-yr-old or a shoteh? And you presume to teach.

 
At Sun Jan 06, 07:36:00 AM 2013, Blogger Cosmic X said...

דרך ברייתו של אדם להיות נמשך בדעותיו ובמעשיו אחר ריעיו וחביריו ונוהג כמנהג אנשי מדינתו לפיכך צריך אדם להתחבר לצדיקים ולישב אצל החכמים תמיד כדי שילמוד ממעשיהם ויתרחק מן הרשעים ההולכים בחשך כדי שלא ילמוד ממעשיהם הוא ששלמה אומר משלי יג כ [הוֹלֵךְ] אֶת חֲכָמִים וחכם [יֶחְכָּם] וְרֹעֶה כְסִילִים יֵרועַ ואומר אשרי האיש וגו' וכן אם היה במדינה שמנהגותיה רעים ואין אנשיה הולכים בדרך ישרה ילך למקום שאנשיה צדיקים ונוהגים בדרך טובים ואם היו כל המדינות שהוא יודעם ושומע שמועתן נוהגים בדרך לא טובה כמו זמנינו או שאינו יכול ללכת למדינה שמנהגותיה טובים מפני הגייסות או מפני החולי ישב לבדו יחידי כענין שנאמר ישב בדד וידום ואם היו רעים וחטאים שאין מניחים אותו לישב במדינה אא"כ נתערב עמהן ונוהג במנהגם הרע יצא למערות ולחוחים ולמדברות ואל ינהיג עצמו בדרך חטאים כענין שנאמר מי יתנני במדבר מלון אורחים.

 
At Sun Jan 06, 11:15:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous 6:27:

You need to learn:

1) To be quiet when you don't know what you're talking about

2) To be civil to people with proper Middot

3) More Torah

4) How to read (I never said that I quit Daf Yomi)

5) That if you have an issue, you are welcome to argue with me, but not attack me personally as you are not my Rav. Refer back to #2 above.

Thank you.

 
At Sun Jan 06, 12:10:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

writing marriage documents for males and animals was before gezel, I also learned with my Rabbi years ago that gezel was the last sin before the distraction of the world and because of the gezel it happened.

--Tsaddik Nistar

 
At Mon Jan 07, 07:40:00 AM 2013, Blogger Neshama said...

Dov, what is the significance of the rain in connection with Sadigura Rebbes?

 
At Mon Jan 07, 08:47:00 AM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

When the 3rd Admor of Sadigura passed away on the 5th of Tevet 5722 (Dec 1961), his last words were "Klal Yisrael needs rain". So starting in 5723, it rained on the 5th of Tevet for 50 years in a row. The last year that it rained on the 5th of Tevet was in 5772. This year it did not rain on the 5th of Tevet 5773. I believe it is because the source of the bracha needed to be renewed as we have now entered a new era where the light of the Messianic Era has begun to shine in the 5th year of this Shmittah cycle. The 5th of Tevet 5766 was also another auspicious date. It was the date of Ariel Sharon's massive 2nd stroke that left him in the vegetative state that he is in now. The 5th Admor of Sadigura loved Eretz Yisrael too. And he fought tooth and nail against Sharon's evil plans. He just passed away last week.

 
At Mon Jan 07, 08:49:00 AM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Actually his last words were Am Yisrael needs rain. sorry about that

 
At Mon Jan 07, 08:53:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know about Sadigura Rebbes, but seems copy of the Sandy will show to big talkers not to think that they safe and may laugh at the rest of the world. When it hit us everybody was talking that it is our punishment, now try to catch the "boomerang".

 
At Mon Jan 07, 09:09:00 AM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

I just checked all the dates. Sharon's 2nd stroke was in the evening of Jan. 4th, 2006 (5th Tevet 5766), and the 3rd Admor of Sadigura passed away on the 5th of Tevet 5722 (Dec. 11-12, 1961).

Here is a copy of what the 3rd Admor thought about Eretz Yisrael and gives one a glimpse of what he thought about the Medina too. very interesting.

http://shearim.blogspot.co.il/2007/06/rebbe-of-sadigora-and-holocaust.html

Yes, we are having some Sandy like activity here too. But in Eretz Yisrael G-d's aim is more accurate, and He makes it more obvious that He is doing the shooting. In Chu"l rain is dispensed to the 70 princes of the nations of the world. So rain in Chu"l is more indirect. Plus the trunks of banana trees under water do not destroy the bananas. I am more concerned about the wheat, corn, and barley crops, but those are more in the Jezreel Valley than on the coast. Heavy snow expected on the Judean/ Shomron ridge starting sometime on Wednesday afternoon from Hevron to Efrat to Beit El to Ariel and in Tzfat too. This last week in Tevet is a wild ride.

 
At Mon Jan 07, 09:09:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

look at this shameless "leaders" who give "inspirations" to Am Israel :
http://rabbinirbenartzienglish.blogspot.co.il/
"What a shame for all those Jews who live outside Eretz Yisrael. They are squandering their money and their life, they must come to Eretz Yisrael now. And if there is a stronger word than “now”, they should use it.

Jews who are true Jews, who live in holy Eretz Yisrael, are protected and safe, the Holy One covers them and the Shechina protects them. All new immigrants or veteran olim, who live in holy Eretz Yisrael, will be protected and safe by the Holy One.

Outside of Eretz Yisrael, no Jew is safe. Those Jews who remain living outside of Eretz Yisrael, are not fulfilling the verse “and you shall carefully guard your souls,” they are not listening to the voice of Father in Heaven, they take risks and wait for his salvation. Father in Heaven is letting you know, ‘I will not save you, only if you live in holy Eretz Yisrael!’ All Jews living in the diaspora, should come to Eretz Yisrael; there is nothing to look for there, no one in the world will help them there or protect them there – only in holy Eretz Yisrael will they be safe and protected."

If it will hit you you should say thank you to big talkers, because your words will punish you to talk negative about Am Israel.

 
At Mon Jan 07, 09:52:00 AM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Mon Jan 07, 09:55:00 AM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Ya'ak: I am getting two Gregorian dates for the passing of the 3rd Admor of Sadigura. Both of them are for the 5th of Tevet, one in 1960 and the other in 1961. Here it says Dec. 24, 1960 (5th of Tevet 5721) which was on Shabbat.

http://www.ancientfaces.com/person/admor-avrohom-yaakov-friedman-yaakov-3rd-sadigerer/516026

and here: http://www.geni.com/people/ADMOR-Avrohom-Yaakov-Friedman-Abir-Yaakov-3rd-Sadigerer-Rebbe/368342821450011265

Here it says that it was in 1961.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadigura_(Hasidic_dynasty)

I believe the first two sources that he passed away on 5th of Tevet 5721 (Dec. 24, 1960). So it actually rained for 51 years after his passing on his Yahrzeit, not just 50 years, starting in 5762 and ending in 5772. Wikipedia needs to be corrected. Either way it was still on the 5th of Tevet. Sorry Neshama. Please accept the slight correction.

 
At Mon Jan 07, 09:59:00 AM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

"starting in 5722 and ending in 5772"

 
At Mon Jan 07, 11:02:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dov what gemara Chulin says about Sandy?

 
At Mon Jan 07, 11:27:00 AM 2013, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

I thought that I made that point easy. Chulin is a double entendre. It means both "mundane Shechitah", and it means "Sandys". The Gemorah in Chulin 92 speaks about the makeh vePatish of a gentile society stooping so low that it grants ketubot to homosexuals. I wrote it all above. In both Sandys all the affected states grant either marriage or equivalent Civil Union contracts to homosexuals. The Civil Union contracts in New Jersey for instance are identical to marriage contracts except they call it Civil Unions. Wisconsin is an exception to this for example. A homosexual Civil Union in Wisconsin only gives the "couple" a limited amount of rights. In New Jersey and in Illinios, the only difference between homosexual Unions and marriages is the name. New York, Connecticut, and Rhode Island all grant similar contracts to homosexuals. So they all were affected by one of the two Sandys...so far.

 
At Mon Jan 07, 02:23:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now Sandy storm came to Israel, coincidence, I don't think so.

 
At Tue Jan 08, 08:48:00 AM 2013, Blogger in the vanguard said...

Pretty sure homosexuality qualifies as עריות and has a prohibition among the 7 Noahide Laws, so one must not, God forbid, provide support for such perversion, even in the form of thinking it irrelevant to the Jew.

 
At Tue Jan 08, 11:11:00 AM 2013, Blogger Ben said...

Here is an interesting quote from HaRav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk.
From this dvar Torah, from one of the Tzadikim who passed away shortly after World War I, we see how he predicted in advance what happened to the Jews in Europe during World War II, and what is threatening the Jews in the USA today. He is suggesting we should not be so comfortable in galus, and realize this is not our place.

בספר משך חכמה עה"ת (ויקרא
כ"ו מ"ד) כתב ג"כ בענין זה וגם בענין שרוצים להתיישב בארצות הגוים בגלות כמו תושבים ולחיות חיי עונג הגשמי ולהתדמות לדרכי וחיי הגוים ח"ו, וע"ש שכתב שד' ית' מאריך אפו כמו מאה מאתיים שנה אחר כך גוזר עלינו ח"ו השמדה וגזירת גירוש וכל זה לטובתינו כדי שלא נפול לגמרי ח"ו להתרחק ממנו ית', וכתב שם דברים חריפים שכך יהיה הסוף ממדינת אשכנז ח"ו ע"ש, והנה רואין בחוש שדבה"ק נאמרו אז ברוח הקודש כי בעונותינו הרבים התקיימו בצורה חמורה מאוד ד"י

All the best,
Ben

 
At Wed Jan 09, 05:00:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course it matters and is valid, I would, however, like to suggest that homosexual marriage contracts are a symptom of the general dysfunction of the system we call society in general...ie: break in the family, society is holistic, things work in tandem....so I think if I recall correctly there is a midrash abt the girl who was put on the roof with honey for having guests, her cries were the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back" to bring the decree for Sodom to be destroyed, I am not saying that all things are considered equal as the Torah does describe homosexuality as a "toevah" but I also remember learning that so is dishonest business, so I just think it is important to note that societal malaise has general shown to be a package deal and while homosexuality is a toevah in and of itself the legalization of homosexual marriage is a culmination/ sign of the times of a complexity of issues/ other stuff happening...

 

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