Rabbi Hoffman Responds to Rabbi Slifkin on Full-Time Torah vs Army
Rabbi Hoffman's Initial Article
Rabbi Slifkin's Response to Rabbi Hoffman
Rabbi Hoffman's Response to Rabbi Slifkin (ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON)
For more on the general subject at hand, see:
Hamodia Op Ed- What Is the Real Issue in Israel?
Arutz Sheva Op Ed - Unraveled Knit Kippot
posted by yaak @ 3/14/2014 12:22:00 PM
14 comments
14 Comments:
I don't get why no one mentions (or maybe i missed it) - that when the torah tells the jews to go to war, in an army, it doesn't talk about going in a goyish army. Even in the torah there is a proper way for the army to behave, and the israeli army does not behave in that way.
Yaak,
I don't know if you noticed the comments in Rabbi Hoffman's original article. The commenters took it apart.
I especially appreciate J.'s comment there, where he shows how Rabbi Kook's opposition to drafting yeshiva students was taken out of context, and not for the first time.
Rabbi Slifkin responds, spot on in your words.
First of all, see Rabbi Pruzansky's post and my comments there to it to see my stance on all this.
While Rabbi Slifkin's response looks compelling at first glance, his response is still very inadequate. (For all his sources, there are 5 times those to counter them. See Rav Benizri's Kuntras, for example.)
Even if there is a halacha for Yeshiva boys to go and fight (which there isn't), what will be with Torah? Will it be relegated to a part-time activity for the majority of Kelal Yisrael? Is that what we want to do in our Dor Yatom that we have today?
As Eytan Kobre wrote, aren't you scared to mess with what works?
Talmidei Hachamim are being produced by the Yeshiva system left and right and people want to mess with this?!?! What dangerous fools!
Even if halachicly there is a basis for them to go to war, (which there isn't), they are not needed in the technological age when most fighting is done by cameras, buttons, and satellites. The army is shortening service so why must Torah learners join exactly?
To change their way of life - government changing religious Jews' way of life. Hmmm... where have we heard that before?
The status quo was just fine and the Haredim who were not learning were joining the army just fine until Lapid and co. came onto the scene and started messing with things.
Now, no Haredim are going to the army. Good job, Lapid.
"The status quo was just fine and the Haredim who were not learning were joining the army just fine until Lapid and co. came onto the scene and started messing with things."
I agree that the situation under the Tal law was a good one. The army was creating special frameworks for Hareidi soldiers and their participation was growing from year to year. But you are mistaken to blame "Lapid and co." as I've already explained several times. It is the High Court that struck down the Tal law! Repeat after me, "High Court, Bagatz". Once that was done, there was no legal basis for deferments and a new law had to be formulated which would be acceptable to Bagatz (I'm not sure that the new law which was passed is "good enough".). What did the Hareidi parties that sat in the previous government do? Did they propose a new law that would be acceptable to Bagatz?
Lapid and company are to blame for the atmosphere of incitement against the Hareidim. The Hareidim for their part can take a look at their own media and ask themselves if they are not just a mirror image of the chiloni media, despite the fact that the books "chafetz chaim" and "shmirat halashon" can probably be found on the bookshelves of their poison pen wielding journalists.
Cosmic,
Can't argue with your last comment.
Everything you said is true and I stand corrected.
I do direct my anger at Bagatz and Lapid.
So instead of proposing a new law to be acceptable to Bagatz, how about we propose a Bagatz that is acceptable to the Law?
I would also limit your admonishment of the Lashon Hara of the Haredi media to a select few journalists. Knowing you, I'm sure you are not saying that all Haredi journalists or even a Rov of Haredi journalists have a poison pen. That in itself would be Motzi Shem Ra. I'm sure that's not what you meant, so I just wanted to clarify that point.
The situation with the Tal law was not so good, the Talmidim Chachamim that were proudly "produced", left and right, were not good enough. You don't produce them left and right, they must come out of the center. Drink a little, perhaps you will see it. Purim Sameach.
OK, madaral.
They're being produced left and right and walk along the Shvil Hazahav. Is that better? :-)
Purim Same'ah
Mordecai was from the right, Ish Yemini, and needed Haman to find the Shvil Hazahav. Now, the question is, were there other people on the Shvil. Drink a little, or more. Perhaps you will find them.
They're saying civil marriage and quasi-conversions are up next. Blame that on the Tal Law. It's a whole anti-Torah agenda.
Rabbi Slifkin's response to Rabbi Hoffman's response to Rabbi Slifkin's response:
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2014/03/torah-army-and-bizarre-chess-analogy.html
Yes, Observing. Anonymous already linked to it. See my comment to it above.
Quote:
When asked what his party will try to advance over the coming year, Lapid said without hesitation: Civil marriage. A bill sponsored by Yesh Atid MKs Aliza Lavie and Ruth Calderon would create a secular marriage track that would grant couples the legal rights of marriage, without forcing them to go through the rabbinate.
“We want to enable people who love each other to live together in a way recognized by the state, without the rabbinate’s approval, whether they are gay, Reform, Conservative or secular,” he said. “We think it’s another major change that’s needed in Israeli society. The current situation splits Israeli society and disconnects many people from around the world from Israel. It’s our duty to change this.”
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