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Tuesday, March 11, 2014

Kol Hakavod to Yoni Chetboun

The one real Yehudi in the Bayit Shel Goyim has spoken out against the draft law and said that he will vote against it.

It is a first crack in the Lapid-Bennett armor.  I wish more would join him.

37 Comments:

At Tue Mar 11, 01:52:00 PM 2014, Blogger Devash said...

Amen!

 
At Tue Mar 11, 02:08:00 PM 2014, Blogger Avi Shevin said...

Bayit Shel Goyim?

You are a truly disgusting Jew. It's truly a shame that we have to admit that you are one, despite the fact that you don't reciprocate. And this just before Purim too. Truly despicable.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 02:14:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

You call me "a disgusting Jew" because I called a party that doesn't listen to rabbis - and therefore has no real connection with Judaism - and persecutes Yeshiva guys a Bayit Shel Goyim?!?!

OK, well assuming you still agree that I still deserve to be called a "disgusting Jew", is this what you would call Rav Ovadia Yosef too who used the exact same Lashon?

If so, עפר לפומך!!!

(Note, I make a huge differentiation between the party known as "Bayit HaYehudi" and Religious Zionist Jews, the latter being people I love.)

 
At Tue Mar 11, 04:41:00 PM 2014, Blogger Michael Lipelis said...

If population of israel will be 51 percent religous within the next generation then shouldn't the army represent that rati o?

 
At Tue Mar 11, 04:42:00 PM 2014, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

1. Does the new law include penalties for not enlisting? jail terms? This was supposedly NOT going to be included. Then Bibi caved to Lapid and included penalties. Did those penalties make it into the final bill? Well I believe that I just heard Yoni Chetboun say that there are criminal penalties.

2. Yet, I look at the date of those penalties being imposed: July 2017. You realize that Ben David will already be here before January of 2016. Why worry? This law will never be enforced.

3. Yet, anyone that has voted to throw Matmidim into jail for not serving has committed a grave offense. Those who learn full time should continue learning. Those who learn part time should serve part time in a Hesder program. I think Feiglin has it correct. The secular medinah is deconstructing. So this is a part of the process. Keep in mind that criminal penalties against Matmidim will never be enforced.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 04:42:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Michael,

Halevay it should much higher than that ratio! Torah learners should still be exempt.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 04:46:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Dov,

Hazak Uvaruch. You're right - we shouldn't worry about far in advance, but we shouldn't allow passage of such laws. Also, there are still certain quotas that are effective immediately.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 06:33:00 PM 2014, Blogger mg said...

I have to agree with Avi. It is Onas Devorim to call a Jewish Neshoma a goy. It is despicable. Also, it is counterproductive and can lead to much hate and resentment. Do you really believe name calling will change the situation? It is not menschlich and it sends a terrible message. Actually it is...goyish.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 06:50:00 PM 2014, Blogger Genoism said...

Just so you all know - this entire law is based on the fact that hassidim are "leeches". Let me tell you exactly what they take from the government - only what the government pays to their yeshivos. An average 24 student yeshiva gets paid about $150 per month. They are not fighting over a loss to the economy, because that loss is minimal. They simply hate the fact that there are jews who live differently.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 07:26:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

mg,

So let me get this straight. You rally against name-calling and in the same breath, you agree with Avi, who called me "a disgusting Jew".

I see.

Secondly, you claim I name-called while I did nothing of the sort. Do you think Rav Ovadia ZT"L would name-call?! Has Veshalom. I never did nor will I ever call Bennett a "Goy". You totally misunderstood Rav Ovadia's use and my own use of the phrase.

Rather, by saying Bayit Shel Goyim, Rav Ovadia and I are sending a message that the policies of the Bayit HaYehudi party have nothing to do with Judaism. There is no adjective "Goyi" so Rav Ovadia ZT"L used Bayit Shel Goyim. There was absolutely no name-calling involved.

And, believe me, if you've seen my posts in that past 9 years, there is nothing (besides Mashiah coming) I would like more than the Haredim and Religious Zionists to sit down and settle their differences. That is a personal dream of mine. I believe the only way to do so is to trash is current BY party and start a new party with people like Yoni Chetboun and Ketzeleh, who have much in common with Jewish values as opposed to these guys in power now.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 07:42:00 PM 2014, Blogger Michael Lipelis said...

Do soldiers not learn torah? Military is law , take it and the future is yours . Yeslearning torah is importsnt but the pepole in charge feel that they are giving charity and now want it back.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 08:05:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Michael,

Of course some soldiers learn Torah. The Torah learning done all day has greater value than when done part-time by a soldier.

The people in charge who think that way are wrong - in fact, the Torah learners are giving much more to the army than the other way around.

 
At Tue Mar 11, 10:48:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There was time when goyish kings stand withswords and forced Jews to learn Torah. They understood better than bait goyim that sustance to the world comes down because of learning Torah

--Moshe

 
At Tue Mar 11, 10:55:00 PM 2014, Blogger Avi Shevin said...

1) I'm not at all fond of Rav Yosef's political commentary. He was not at all a Rodef Shalom, and I think he used his influence to cause more strife than peace. That does not a Tzaddik make.

The phrases "Talmid Chacham" and Tzaddik are not interchangeable.

2) To imply that a political party made up of Jews is not Jewish is wrong, no matter who you are. Jews have fought each other at every point in history, but calling other Jews non-Jewish (even by implication) is a new low.

3) There is nothing in TaNaCH that implies, much less states, that learning all day is a particular virtue. The vast majority of CHaZaL worked for a living. Kal V'chomer their students who did not merit mention in Mishna and Gemara. The idea of learning to the exclusion of all else is no older than the Rishonim, and those Rishonim who espouse the ideal also state that doing so on the backs of others is so completely wrong that it destroys the learning and is a Chillul Hashem.

In short, I don't buy your argument that learning by soldiers is less valuable than those who demand support to sit in the Bet Hamidrash all day. Certainly CHaZaL and the Rishonim would think the opposite. Funny how only those who are on the receiving end think they are special tzaddikim.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 12:25:00 AM 2014, Blogger Devash said...

There's a saying: "By their fruits you shall know them." This is what the final birur is all about. Separating the real Jews from the fakes. Our sources are replete with explanations of what "fruit" is produced by the real Jewish neshama. Look at the fruit coming from Bayit "Yehudi" and all you see is destruction in its wake. They are from the Erev Zeir and they must be fought. When the hearts and minds of the real Jewish neshamas realize this and detach themselves from it, they will lose their power. It looks to me like Bennet is currently leading the Erev Zeir while Lapid is leading the Erev Rav. These leadership roles rotate so as to keep the real Jews off balance and never quite sure of what's really going on around them. It prevents an effective defense against them.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 01:05:00 AM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Avi,

1) I'm not at all fond of Rav Yosef's political commentary. He was not at all a Rodef Shalom, and I think he used his influence to cause more strife than peace. That does not a Tzaddik make

Your taste in Tzadikim is sorely lacking. And Rav Ovadia Yosef ZT"L was the biggest Rodef Shalom throughout his lifetime than anyone. Being Rodef Shalom doesn't mean to make Shalom with people who are not interested in the said Shalom. It's like making Shalom with Abbas - it's useless. When the Shalom isn't going anywhere, Rav Ovadia knows how to use a stinging attack to show that he's not a Mahnif. When Shalom is warranted, you will find no one in the past 100 years more adept at making Shalom than Rav Ovadia.

2) To imply that a political party made up of Jews is not Jewish is wrong, no matter who you are. Jews have fought each other at every point in history, but calling other Jews non-Jewish (even by implication) is a new low.

I see we have different definitions of "Jewish". I (as Rav Ovadia did before me) am defining "Jewish" as a Jewish/halachic/Torah-based policy. You seem to want to define Jewish as whether the party is made up of Jews. No one would argue that according to your definition, the party is Jewish. According to my definition, the party is far, far away from Judaism. Thus, Bayit Shel Goyim is very apropos. What is a new low is calling Rav Ovadia not a Tzaddik. That is surely a new low.

3) There is nothing in TaNaCH that implies, much less states, that learning all day is a particular virtue. The vast majority of CHaZaL worked for a living. Kal V'chomer their students who did not merit mention in Mishna and Gemara. The idea of learning to the exclusion of all else is no older than the Rishonim, and those Rishonim who espouse the ideal also state that doing so on the backs of others is so completely wrong that it destroys the learning and is a Chillul Hashem

It seems that Rashbi on Berachot 35b held this view, so saying it's not mentioned in the gemara is a fabrication. The maskana of the gemara there says it's not tenable, but it seems to me that it seems ideal according to Rashbi and was tried albeit unsuccessfully in Abaye's days. So, to say that it's not ideal is a complete lie. Plus, the Rambam at the end of Shemitta VeYovel considers it an ideal. Re: Doing so on the backs of others, if they are willing participants, what's the harm? If they are not willing participants, they should be so. There are countless gemarot, Midrashim, etc. that espouse the virtues of supporting Torah learning. It therefore does NOT destroy the learning and is therefore NOT a hillul Hashem. Just the opposite. Where do you get such nonsense from?

In short, I don't buy your argument that learning by soldiers is less valuable than those who demand support to sit in the Bet Hamidrash all day. Certainly CHaZaL and the Rishonim would think the opposite. Funny how only those who are on the receiving end think they are special tzaddikim.

Certainly Hazal and Rishonim would think the opposite?!?! Please cite your sources that you are so "certain" of. The Religious Zionist rabbanim admit that the learning of all-day, all year programs far exceeds those of Hesder. And who are you calling the "receiving" end? I would consider Torah learners the givers and the rest of the country receivers! Just because you don't see, touch, taste, or smell the benefit they provide doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You should thank them each and every day.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 01:44:00 AM 2014, Blogger Cosmic X said...

Yaak is a dear Jew and a genius to boot.

As much as I disagree with Rav Ovadiah's "Bayit Shel Goyim" comment, he zt"l was one of the greatest rabbis of our generation(s), and if Yaak wants to use that terminology, he can for he is just quoting a gadol.

My guess is that MK Shetbon (sorry, I'm not French, Je ne parle pas Francais, so I spell his name with "sh" and not "ch") said what he said with Bennett's blessing. MK Yogev expressed somewhat similar sentiments as well.

While the law is not perfect, it is an improvement on the present legal situation. MK Feiglin said that in private the Hareidi MKs admit that are happy with the law.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 08:11:00 AM 2014, Blogger Genoism said...

Few quick things....
It says in the Torah that any Jew who 1. dies not keep Shabbos is not considered a Jew. Most Israeli politicians do not keep Shabbos at all. It's safe to say they are goyim. Of they do teshuva they are Jews once again.
2. Even paroh understood that the Jews needed to learn. Why do you think he left the leveim alone during or enslavement?
3. You obviously do not Raven because if you did you would know that we constantly day that hashem took us out of Egypt only to follow his laws. His laws clearly state that the more you tertiary in hashem the less you have to work. It clearly states in shema that of you keep all my Mitzvot he will provide for you everything you need. You don't need a big Rabbi from the last generation to tell you this... Just some common sense.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 08:51:00 AM 2014, Blogger Genoism said...

Just read my silly comment.... Stupid phone changed a lot of my words to make it sound like nonsense lol... Well hope you still get the gist of what I tried to say.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 11:23:00 AM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Cosmic,

Thank you for your kind words, but I am far from a genius. I'm just a simple Jew who sees things in ways that others may not.

I wasn't so comfortable with "Bayit Shel Goyim" when Rav Ovadia first said it either. I wondered then why he would foster the disunity that would surely follow. However, we now see the prophetic nature of his words. He was trying to show us that the party that claims to stand for Jewish values - doesn't. And he was 100% right.

Yoni Chetboun is being censured by his party, so I would find it difficult to believe that he said this with Bennett's blessing. Re: MK Yogev, he still voted for the bill, though.

The reason the law is NOT an improvement on the present legal situation is because it sets quotas for Yeshiva students and criminalizes those who wish to continue learning Torah for their life. Is it better than what organizations like Hiddush would like? Of course, but it still should be opposed.

"The Hareidi MKs admit that are happy with the law" - yeah, "happy" is relative to what it could have been. They would be much happier without quotas and without criminal sanctions. Putting criminal sanctions on Torah study is a HUGE Hillul Hashem that should be opposed by all. The entire BY should know better. It's too bad only one of them did.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 12:44:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Shiloh said...

For 6 day's you shall labor! They must learn to contribute to building a Nation above all nations and stop caring about only themselves.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 12:46:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Yes, Shiloh. I agree. This is exactly what I would tell all the Hilonim who don't learn Torah in Israel.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 12:56:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Shiloh said...

Learn Torah at home on your own shekel Yaak, and not on my tax shekel that's keeping me broke feeding those milking the system (before you jump, I am in that world every day and know it's secrets well). They must contribute like the sages of old did, that is having a job to support their family and to support the nation. Why did they not use the protest of a few days ago to ask God to reveal the messiah? Why did they not protest for us to unite, even with our differences? No one could touch us Yaak if we where actually united as Jews. Let's see if the Tanach is true, I challenge all the black hats who pray for the messiah daily to make a move for such, but in reality, no one want's it, that's the real truth.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 01:00:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

The fact that you make a shekel or two is only DUE to the fact that there are those learning Torah. YOU should be thanking THEM for THEIR support.

And FYI, perhaps you missed the huge Ani Ma'amin song being sung at the end of the prayer rally. You don't really know too much about the rally, do you.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 01:16:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Shiloh said...

There you go, it's a lost cause. It's nothing about 'faith' Yaak. It's about Truth, not faith! It's about our deeds and again I challenge you black hats. Me earning a living is from the Creator of All, it's nothing to do with those stealing half of it who cheat the system all under the guise of Torah and obviously the fascist system here. I see Yaak, as you do not, how high the sexual abuse of minors is in your world here in Israel. Right next to my neighborhood here in Jerusalem there is a huge investigation of Charedim sexually abusing kids, the rabbi's paying off the police to cover it up. I work with them watching them cheat in business, lying to customers, charging incorrect amounts. They all claim how righteous they all are, how they all are keeping the Nation alive. What arrogance Yaak. It took secular Jews to build this Nation, so it's high time the Charedim and Chasidim pull their weight. So let's bring the messiah together Yaak and see who is actually on the right path. Those on the wrong path won't be able to lick the dirt off of the messiah's shoes.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 01:21:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

I will not defend abusers or those who cheat in business, but how do you even get onto that subject? Is it because you know you have no argument, and must resort to defaming a whole group of people due to the sins of the very few?! Is it because you don't have the faith necessary to be a true Jew committed to the Torah that you think faith and truth cannot go together? Is it because of the emptiness of your own lack of belief in Torah SheBe'al Peh that makes you come to this blog to search for it?

Some things to think about, Shiloh, my friend.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 01:31:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Shiloh said...

It's not a very few Yaak, sad to say. I work with psychologists who are treating these children and adults, it's incredibly high. I run into the cheats daily, and most certainly that is not all. Sons of light vs sons of dark. Empty arguments about getting those who leach off the system to work and contribute to the Nation (forget those ones who stay in the galut contributing to the nations as they must work to survive, but that's another story)
.
Now coming to this blog is one of many to see what's happening in all segments of our world, but it's certainly not to search for an invention of men. Nothing wrong with midrashim Yaak, but that's all they are. So again Yaak, I challenge all you black hats and let the chips fall where they may.

By the way, I was talking to a Charedi rabbi today from a major kiruv organization about using a protest for the ideas I presented above. He does not attack, but asks why they don't and admits there is much fear within the community for change, ie mashiach.

On that, have a purim sameach and start practicing what you wish for, bring it on.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 01:33:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Shiloh said...

Oh, by the way, you will be part of the club of religous who will fight the messiah. Take that to the bank Yaak, take it to the bank.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 01:36:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

No, Shiloh. That is pure defamation. It is not incredibly high. Your stats are made up due to your own bias. And your blasphemy is there for all to see to boot.

I too wish you a Purim Same'ah, and may you use your Purim to be enlightened in Torah Shebe'al Peh, which was accepted with love on Purim.

 
At Wed Mar 12, 05:20:00 PM 2014, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Shioh: Sons of Light vs. Sons of Darkness Dead Sea Scrolls, right?

I just had to point out that the debate about this bill that Chetboun voted against had nothing to do with money for yeshivot or child stipends. The big issue was, "Should there be criminal penalties for not serving in the Army?" If they are Matmidim, the answer should be NO! whether they get paid for their learning time or not. Way back at the founding of the State, the Chazon Ish did say that the Torah world will need two generations to recover from the Shoah. Even though each generation is 40 years, there is a ten year overlap mi'Dor l'Dor. So two full generations is 70 years. One can see that the special dispensations that the Chareidim financially needed are almost up now that we are after 65 years since 5708. So it makes sense that there needs to be changes. For instance, not everyone gets a stipend to learn. But giving jail terms to Matmidim crosses over the line big time, and that is what Chetboun was fighting against.

 
At Thu Mar 13, 12:38:00 AM 2014, Blogger madaral said...

The issue is not with the Matmidim. The issue is with the others, the non-Matmidim. Will they go to the army or do Sherut Leumi? You see, the leadership is now forced to cooperate, and let the non-Matmidim go, otherwise they are responsible for what will happen to the Matmidim. The law is brilliant. All know that the Matmidim will not go to jail, because all know that the non-Matmidim will go to the army or do Sherut Leumi. The leadership is forced to cooperate. Nobody will go to jail. The threat will do the job, will force cooperation. That the cooperation of the "Torah" world has to be forced in this sad way, that is the reality we should all reflect over.

 
At Thu Mar 13, 02:08:00 AM 2014, Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Madaral: Where can we see an exact Hebrew or English copy of the law? I have only seen summary explanations. If what you say is true, it is brilliant. And are there Hesder programs for part time learners? Thanx.

 
At Thu Mar 13, 03:40:00 AM 2014, Blogger Cosmic X said...

Yaak,

I did not know about the sanctions taken against Shetbon, so apparently I was wrong about that one. However, once the Tal Law was struck down the legal situation was that everybody had to go in to the army (This was not immediately enforced. ). The present situation is much better.

 
At Thu Mar 13, 04:30:00 AM 2014, Blogger madaral said...

The text of the law I could not find yet, a summary is here. Regarding Hesder, they can be "created:" It is the "task" of Yeshivot to become Hesder, not of the government to create Hesder Yeshivot. There is nothing in the law that confines Hesder Yeshivot to the Dati Leumi camp.

 
At Thu Mar 13, 09:44:00 AM 2014, Blogger Akiva said...

My comments and the text of the law is here.

 
At Thu Mar 13, 11:30:00 AM 2014, Blogger madaral said...

Yishar Koach, Akiva.

 
At Thu Mar 13, 12:30:00 PM 2014, Blogger Cosmic X said...

Great post Akiva. I was looking for a link to the law. Here is a loose translation of what I found on the href="http://main.knesset.gov.il/News/PressReleases/Pages/press120314-2.aspx">knesset site:

The proposal is aimed to regulate the integration of yeshiva students in the army and civilian service in a two - stage process. The first period, until 2017, defined as "the period of adjustment", during which the yeshiva students to choose whether to enlist in the army, civil service, or to serve or continue to learning in Yeshivah. Additionally, those aged 22 years when the law was passed, can receive an exemption from army service in order to allow their integration into the labor force. Anyone aged 18 to 22 when the legislation was passed will be able to postpone army service until the age of 24, and if they do so, they can receive a full exemption.
During the adjustment period, and afterwards, during the permanent period, the Government shall set rising enlistment goals. If the goals are achieved during the permanent period, recruitment will continue to be voluntary and yeshiva students will be able to defer their service until the age of 26, and get an exemption. However, if the recruitment target was not achieved in a particular year, starting from that year, all yeshivah students from the age of 21 and up will be required to enlist in the army or civilian service, except for 1800 "matmidim" (especially diligent learners - CX) .

In addition, the bill proposes to shorten the period of compulsory service for men, from July 2015, (from 36 - CX) to 32 months. It also proposes to regulate the "hesder yeshivah" track with military service of not less than 17 months (instead of 16 -CX). Students in the Zionist can postpone their service until the age of 23. 300 of them each year could postpone the service until the age of 26, and enlist then (what's called hesder Merkaz - CX).

 

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