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Tuesday, July 21, 2009

On Settling the Land

אטיאס: גרים מאחורי הקו הירוק בהוראת רבותינו

Et tu Harry?

Parshat Mas'ei:

נ וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, בְּעַרְבֹת מוֹאָב, עַל-יַרְדֵּן יְרֵחוֹ, לֵאמֹר.
50 And the LORD spoke unto Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho, saying:
נא דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאָמַרְתָּ אֲלֵהֶם: כִּי אַתֶּם עֹבְרִים אֶת-הַיַּרְדֵּן, אֶל-אֶרֶץ כְּנָעַן.
51 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: When ye pass over the Jordan into the land of Canaan,
נב וְהוֹרַשְׁתֶּם אֶת-כָּל-יֹשְׁבֵי הָאָרֶץ, מִפְּנֵיכֶם, וְאִבַּדְתֶּם, אֵת כָּל-מַשְׂכִּיֹּתָם; וְאֵת כָּל-צַלְמֵי מַסֵּכֹתָם תְּאַבֵּדוּ, וְאֵת כָּל-בָּמוֹתָם תַּשְׁמִידוּ.
52 then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured stones, and destroy all their molten images, and demolish all their high places.
נג וְהוֹרַשְׁתֶּם אֶת-הָאָרֶץ, וִישַׁבְתֶּם-בָּהּ: כִּי לָכֶם נָתַתִּי אֶת-הָאָרֶץ, לָרֶשֶׁת אֹתָהּ.
53 And ye shall drive out the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein; for unto you have I given the land to possess it.
נד וְהִתְנַחַלְתֶּם אֶת-הָאָרֶץ בְּגוֹרָל לְמִשְׁפְּחֹתֵיכֶם, לָרַב תַּרְבּוּ אֶת-נַחֲלָתוֹ וְלַמְעַט תַּמְעִיט אֶת-נַחֲלָתוֹ--אֶל אֲשֶׁר-יֵצֵא לוֹ שָׁמָּה הַגּוֹרָל, לוֹ יִהְיֶה: לְמַטּוֹת אֲבֹתֵיכֶם, תִּתְנֶחָלוּ.
54 And ye shall inherit the land by lot according to your families--to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer thou shalt give the less inheritance; wheresoever the lot falleth to any man, that shall be his; according to the tribes of your fathers shall ye inherit.
נה וְאִם-לֹא תוֹרִישׁוּ אֶת-יֹשְׁבֵי הָאָרֶץ, מִפְּנֵיכֶם--וְהָיָה אֲשֶׁר תּוֹתִירוּ מֵהֶם, לְשִׂכִּים בְּעֵינֵיכֶם וְלִצְנִינִם בְּצִדֵּיכֶם; וְצָרְרוּ אֶתְכֶם--עַל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר אַתֶּם יֹשְׁבִים בָּהּ.
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then shall those that ye let remain of them be as thorns in your eyes, and as pricks in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land wherein ye dwell.
נו וְהָיָה, כַּאֲשֶׁר דִּמִּיתִי לַעֲשׂוֹת לָהֶם--אֶעֱשֶׂה לָכֶם.
56 And it shall come to pass, that as I thought to do unto them, so will I do unto you. {P}

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At Tue Jul 21, 06:49:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

I think he is wrong politically, and that such an approach is foolish.

However, citing psukim is not necessarily helpful here. see Taanis 22b. the pasuk said that no sword shall pass through eretz yisrael, but Yoshiyahu mis-estimated the situation, and the people's righteousness. this was not the time to apply these particular pesukim, and he should have consulted Yirmiyahu on this.


At Wed Jul 22, 03:27:00 AM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

Believe me, I'm not the first to have cited these Pesukim - these Pesukim have long been cited and applied to our current situation by many people much greater than me. I can show examples, if you wish.

At Wed Jul 22, 06:34:00 AM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

i know, but are there not others (rabbis included) who say otherwise? again, not that i agree with it, but for example, doesn't Rav Ovadia Yosef believe that one may give land for peace? if so, he presumably does not believe that the time and place for applying these pesukim is now and here.


At Wed Jul 22, 10:23:00 AM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

I would venture to say that with the current Palestinian leadership, Rav Ovadia would be in favor of applying these Pesukim now.

At Wed Jul 22, 11:50:00 AM 2009, Blogger Neshama said...

We have been living under this for over 60 years: "as thorns in your eyes, and as pricks in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land wherein ye dwell"

Why not try the other approach: "And the LORD spoke unto Moses ... And ye shall drive out the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein; for unto you have I given the land to possess it"

Kol HaKavod

At Wed Jul 22, 01:05:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

again, i agree, but what with the world situation? given the present US attitude towards Israel, and given our present non-messianic state, is driving them out of the land (what the pesukim are saying) an advised course of action. one would have to ask Rav Ovadiah Yosef, rather than making an assumption of his position.


At Wed Jul 22, 01:20:00 PM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

Agreed, Josh.
As much as I'd like to, I cannot equate the positions of Rav Ovadia Shlit"a and R' Meir Kahane Zt"l.

At Wed Jul 22, 01:50:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...


At Wed Jul 22, 10:33:00 PM 2009, Blogger madaral said...

It is a fight of two boxers, Meir and Aharon. The fight is nearing the final round. Up till now, Meir won every round, but Aharon claims to be the better boxer and wants to say that Meir's lead is because of his lucky hits only. Aharon keeps looking for the knock out. Ovadia's favorite was Aharon, but he is now fearing for his fate. He did not openly switch sides though. Harry is Aharon's son. Do not expect him to switch sides.


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