Tuesday, July 21, 2009

גליא רזא and 5770

A recent post from Shirat Devorah called "Obama and the Geula", which I helped her translate, mentions the book גליא רזא, which states that:
From 5760 until 5770, the souls of the heel will conclude - in other words, from 5770 on, according to the book גליא רזא which comes from the students of the Ari Hakadosh, the "זהירא עילאה" souls will start to fall....

I was searching through the גליא רזא for this statement, but could not locate it. If anyone knows what page it's on, please let me know.
I did, however, find the concept of the importance of the year 5760, and its connection to the number of eggs required for the minimum shiur in a mikveh.

Related: Visions of Geula talks about the year 5770, and tells you you have no need for calendars after that year.

Meanwhile, I haven't given up hope yet on 5769...

30 Comments:

At Tue Jul 21, 04:01:00 PM 2009, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BIRTH DATE OF MACHIACH = 07/07/1970

07/07/1970 = GUIMEL TAMOUZ(Convertissor)

THE NAME OF MACHIAH = GUEMATRIA 101 = MICHAEL

GUEOULA = 5770

 
At Tue Jul 21, 06:51:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

while we are at it, why don't we prepare in advance reasons why the year mashiach will come will be:
5770
5771
5772
5773
5774
5775
5776
...

you know that they be coming, if ch"v we reach those years without mashiach yet having arrived. it makes the whole exercise rather silly, imho...

kt,
josh

 
At Tue Jul 21, 07:50:00 PM 2009, Anonymous Anonymous said...

by the way the thing with the eggs abd the importance of the year 5760 can also be founf in chesed leavraham under sod hamikveh

 
At Tue Jul 21, 10:58:00 PM 2009, Anonymous Anonymous said...

rav kaaduri said 5770 moshiach come

 
At Tue Jul 21, 11:22:00 PM 2009, Blogger Devorah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Tue Jul 21, 11:23:00 PM 2009, Blogger Devorah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 03:35:00 AM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

Josh:
you know that they be coming, if ch"v we reach those years without mashiach yet having arrived. it makes the whole exercise rather silly, imho...


Absolutely not silly - it's an exercise in expecting the Ge'ula, which is one way to actually bring the Ge'ula.


To Anonymous 7:50 PM,

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I'm aware that the chesed leavraham says the same thing. Nava's blog has mentioned it a few times.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 06:37:00 AM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

Devorah:
"Read Vision of Geulah... after 5770 we won't be needing calendars."
you probably won't remember by this point, but after 5770, go back to Vision of Geulah and see what he is saying. Probably that after 5772 we won't be needing calendars.

yaak:
true, but i disagree with keitz-ism as a means to this end. how is Vision of Geulah taking it? how is Devorah taking it? meanwhile, people are making themselves perpetually silly and spouting nonsense.

kt,
josh

 
At Wed Jul 22, 10:38:00 AM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

Josh,

I'll admit that there is a lot of nonsense out there, but "keitz-ism" (as you call it) is a valid means to this end, I would contend.

I stumbled upon a website recently http://www.israel613.com/GEULA1.htm

One of the boxes there states the following:

CALCULATING THE DATE OF MASHIACH'S COMING

Making calculations is perfectly acceptable according to many great rabbis of the past, and many did exactly that. For example, according to the Abarbanel, it is only forbidden to make the calculation based upon astrology; however, it is permissible to calculate a date based upon Tanach (Ma’ayeni HaYeshuah 1:2). The Ramban held that the prohibition of the Talmud only applied to earlier generations; now that we are on the eve of redemption, there is no prohibition (Sefer HaGeulah, Ma’amer 4). The Malbim concurs, and provides the following analogy to explain his opinion: The situation is like that of a father and son traveling a long distance. As they start out, the son begins to ask when they will arrive, and of course the father does not answer. However, as they near the town, the son asks the same question, and this time the father readily answers that it is only a short while before they reach their destination. So too it is with us: now that the time is clearly approaching, we cannot help but notice and interpret the signs all around us that tell of the impending geulah ... As the time of the keitz grows nearer, the doubts will become smaller, and at the keitz, all doubts will be removed ... As the time grows closer, the uncertainty recedes in the wake of the increasingly “abounding wisdom” (Introduction to Daniel). The Maggid of Dubno used a similar analogy as well. The Zohar even states that it is not God’s will to reveal the arrival date of the Moshiach, but when the date draws near, even children will be able to make the calculation (Bereishis 118a). According to the Vilna Gaon, there seems to be little problem making the calculation from his commentary, but one who does must promise not to reveal his finding to another: “And from here [what I have just written] you can calculate the time of the Final Redemption if, God forbid, we do not merit [to bring it earlier]; however, I have imposed an oath, in the name of the God of Israel, on the reader of this that he should not reveal it.” (Biur HaGra, Safra D’Tzniusa, Chapter Five)

 
At Wed Jul 22, 01:17:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"The Malbim concurs, and provides the following analogy to explain his opinion"
and doubtless then approved, based on his reasoning, of calculating the ketz in his days. let me now ask you: it is now 2009. the malbim died in 1979. the ramban died in 1270. were those making false predictions of the ketz in his days indeed at the eve of redemption?! but of course we will not learn from his mistake, but rather cite his position to reinforce the validity of our own mistake.

the problem here (at the least) is that everybody, throughout the centuries, who predicts the ketz believes the ketz to be just around the corner. which is what Chazal were worried about. for all you really know, the ketz might not be for another 1000 years! but since people wrongly calculate the ketz, using circular reasoning they think it is permissible to calculate the ketz.

i am fairly certain that in the times of the gemara, some of those who calculated the ketz also believed it to be just around the corner. if so, to whom were chazal addressing the prohibition?

but you are correct, there are other explanations of this. i just disagree with them, and think them incredibly ill-advised.

and i watched as people predicted 5768 to be certainly the ketz, and then 5769, and now 5770 (which of course its Chabad overtones). and more than than, every Jewish holiday *within* these years as being the ketz.

i don't think that the end is only anticipating Mashiach. there are all sorts of side-effects along the way. and there is a difference in hoping for mashiach and living in a constantly frantic, pre-apocalyptic world.

kt,
josh

 
At Wed Jul 22, 01:23:00 PM 2009, Anonymous zach said...

rav kaaduri said 5770 moshiach come

And if moshiach doesn't come, will you disavow everything that R. Kaaduri says in the future, or - more likely - ignore his inaccurate predication and make various excuses for it? This nonsense is no different from predictions about the future by so-called psychics.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 03:14:00 PM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

the malbim died in 1979
I think you mean 1879.

but of course we will not learn from his mistake, but rather cite his position to reinforce the validity of our own mistake.
It's not a mistake. We didn't merit the redemption for some reason during the calculations that were made. This is not just apologetics for those making the calculations - I really believe this to be emet.

the problem here (at the least) is that everybody, throughout the centuries, who predicts the ketz believes the ketz to be just around the corner. which is what Chazal were worried about.
No - Haza"l were worried about people being meya'eish from the Ge'ula, which although could still happen, is much less likely to happen the closer we get to the year 6000.

and i watched as people predicted 5768 to be certainly the ketz, and then 5769, and now 5770 (which of course its Chabad overtones). and more than than, every Jewish holiday *within* these years as being the ketz.
These predictions were not Ketz predictions - these are reasoned, hopeful possiblities - not a real calculation like what was done by the Ramban, et al.

i don't think that the end is only anticipating Mashiach. there are all sorts of side-effects along the way. and there is a difference in hoping for mashiach and living in a constantly frantic, pre-apocalyptic world.
Very few bloggers are promoting that we live in a frantic, pre-apocalyptic world. The rest of us Ge'ula bloggers suggest that we live in a normal, but non-complacent, world - a world where life goes on, but we know that life will be different when the time comes, and we are hopeful that that time is coming sooner than later.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 04:53:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"It's not a mistake. We didn't merit the redemption for some reason during the calculations that were made."
yes, i readily concede that you do believe this. personally, i think it is historical apologetics that worked its way into the core beliefs. (much like the many predictions of ketz in the zohar.)

"Haza"l were worried about people being meya'eish from the Ge'ula, which although could still happen, is much less likely to happen the closer we get to the year 6000."
was it possible in the 13th century, given how many centuries there were until 6000?

and why wouldn't people have the same teretz in the days of Chazal? ultimately, it did not come.

anyway, everyone treats 6000 as this fixed, last possible date. it is not so. while there is a gemara that talks about a 7000 year cycle, this is quite possibly influenced by early Zoroastrianism. only Hashem knows. what if the ketz is in the year 60,000?

kt,
josh

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:03:00 PM 2009, Blogger Devorah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:30:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"I can't believe you can seriously write that"
i can seriously write that. and it is an unfortunate thing that people compare fellow jews to amalek.

kt,
josh

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:31:00 PM 2009, Blogger Devorah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:34:00 PM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

Josh, are you aware that the gemara in Sanhedrin and the Yerushalmi in Shabbat also made Ge'ula predictions which didn't pan out?
What happened there? Why didn't it happen then? Is saying we weren't worthy then "historical apologetics that worked its way into the core beliefs"?

I quote you from the Pnei Moshe on Yerushalmi Shabbat 39b:

אמר ר' חנינא בריה דר' אבהו, כבחצי ימיו של עולם היה אותו רשע עומד

כשבלעם התנבא, היה זה בזמן שמחצית ימי העולם כבר עברו, דהיינו בשנת ב' אלפים תפ"ו שנים לבריאת העולם, ועוד כימים האלה דהיינו בשנת ד' אלפים תתקע"ב, אם ישראל היו שבים בתשובה הייתה הנבואה חוזרת והגאולה הייתה באה. אלא שבעונינו שרבו עברו מה שעברו

was it possible in the 13th century, given how many centuries there were until 6000?

and why wouldn't people have the same teretz in the days of Chazal? ultimately, it did not come.

I refer you to the Malbim's parable above.

anyway, everyone treats 6000 as this fixed, last possible date. it is not so. while there is a gemara that talks about a 7000 year cycle, this is quite possibly influenced by early Zoroastrianism. only Hashem knows. what if the ketz is in the year 60,000?
This is total rubbish, and close to Kefira - the gemara in Sanhedrin is clear.

Devorah, while I agree with you, I'd caution you from calling someone Amalek-like, especially my cousin Josh. While I disagree with him a lot, he's still a Talmid Hacham.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:36:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

oy. say what you will. doesn't bother me, but it does detract from you.

if i may add, there is another statement about 2000 years of chaos, 2000 years of Torah, and 2000 years of mashiach. it was a big deal when the 2000 years of Torah were over. people grappled, at that time, with just what that meant. weren't people still coming up with Torah, even then. and people came up with answers.

if the year 6000 passes without mashiach arriving, i am confident that we (or rather, our descendants) can readily find an interpretation that will make sense.

this does not make me Amalek, or Erev Rav, or what have you. of course, feel free to disagree on the substance of my words. but the year 6000 is not one of the ikkarei emunah.

quack,
josh

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:38:00 PM 2009, Blogger Devorah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:42:00 PM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

Contradicting, disagreeing - yes.
Namecalling - no.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:48:00 PM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

but the year 6000 is not one of the ikkarei emunah
Ok, but how about מכחיש מגידיה - which I'm not saying you are doing, but close to doing. Zoroastrian source? Gimme a break.
Year 60,000??? Gimme a break. (I would hope it was only used as a Guzma.)

 
At Wed Jul 22, 05:57:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

thanks for your words of defense.

though i'm not so sure it is name-calling. she feels that i am acting like Amalek acted when the bnei yisrael first left Egypt; by attacking, they cooled the faith of others. still, since there is a commandment of timcheh et zecher amalek, it is not entirely pleasant to be labeled as such.

there is a good deal of precedent in considering one's hashkafic opponents Amalek or the Erev Rav. we find the Vilna Gaon talking about the souls of the erev rav. we find this explanation, even, by Sabbateans in the time of Shabtai Tzvi explaining why otherwise frum rabbis were opposing their mashiach. perhaps this is an almost compulsory response to someone with rabbinic credentials arguing against the certainty of one's tenets...

in terms of the Yerushalmi and the gemara in Sanhedrin, i'd prefer to deal with specifics. it certainly is possible that a Tanna or Amora had an incorrect belief about mashiach. After all, even Rabbi Akiva erred in this regard. and as we discussed in an earlier post, certain predictions about the ascension of Edom or Paras were based on a world-model that no longer exists, and quite possibly should not be extrapolated to present times.

but i'd have to see. let me consider the Yerushalmi, and get back to you. which specific gemara in Sanhedrin?

kol tuv,
josh

 
At Wed Jul 22, 06:05:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

yes, it was a guzma, meant to underscore the idea that only Hashem really knows the ketz. some jews in mitzrayim were absolutely certain about the 400 year cutoff.

the Zoroastrian bit is something i heard in a class a few years back. the idea would be that the midrash (about 2000 of chaos, 2000 of Torah, etc.) was possibly intended *metaphorically*, and echoing a known Zoroastrian saying, but *modified* to accord with Jewish thought. there are other such statements from Amoraim, which closely parallel Zoroastrian ideas but differ in important ways, and *perhaps* the original audience understood the true message by the contrast.

kol tuv,
josh

 
At Wed Jul 22, 06:21:00 PM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

97b near the top:

אמר ליה אליהו לרב יהודה אחוה דרב סלא חסידא אין העולם פחות משמונים וחמשה יובלות וביובל האחרון בן דוד בא אמר ליה בתחילתו או בסופו אמר ליה איני יודע כלה או אינו כלה אמר ליה איני יודע רב אשי אמר הכי א"ל עד הכא לא תיסתכי ליה מכאן ואילך איסתכי ליה שלח ליה רב חנן בר תחליפא לרב יוסף מצאתי אדם אחד ובידו מגילה אחת כתובה אשורית ולשון קדש אמרתי לו זו מניין לך אמר לי לחיילות של רומי נשכרתי ובין גינזי רומי מצאתיה וכתוב בה לאחר ד' אלפים ומאתים ותשעים ואחד שנה לבריאתו של עולם העולם יתום מהן מלחמות תנינים מהן מלחמות גוג ומגוג ושאר ימות המשיח ואין הקב"ה מחדש את עולמו אלא לאחר שבעת אלפים שנה רב אחא בריה דרבא אמר לאחר חמשת אלפים שנה
איתמר תניא רבי נתן אומר מקרא זה נוקב ויורד עד תהום (חבקוק ב) כי עוד חזון למועד ויפח לקץ ולא יכזב אם יתמהמה חכה לו כי בא יבא לא יאחר לא כרבותינו שהיו דורשין (דנייאל ז) עד עידן עידנין ופלג עידן ולא כר' שמלאי שהיה דורש (תהילים פ) האכלתם לחם דמעה ותשקמו בדמעות שליש ולא כרבי עקיבא שהיה דורש (חגיי ב) עוד אחת מעט היא ואני מרעיש את השמים ואת הארץ אלא מלכות ראשון שבעים שנה מלכות שניה חמשים ושתים ומלכות בן כוזיבא שתי שנים ומחצה מאי ויפח לקץ ולא יכזב

 
At Wed Jul 22, 06:27:00 PM 2009, Blogger yaak said...

some jews in mitzrayim were absolutely certain about the 400 year cutoff.
which was supposed to be the Keitz, but Hashem, in His mercy shortened it, as opposed to what you seem to be saying which is to lengthen it.

Using Zoroastrian sources for Haza"l just rubs me the wrong way - it's something I'd expect to see on certain unnamed blogs.

 
At Wed Jul 22, 07:01:00 PM 2009, Blogger joshwaxman said...

Hashem shortened the ketz by making it 210 years rather than 400 or 430. this does not necessarily translate into that the Bnei Ephraim, who began the shortened count from too early a time, were calculating correctly...

the evidence of Zoroastrian influence does not really bother me. many times, Torah expresses itself in terms of the culture of the time. I am sure that plenty of statements of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, for example, can be best understood once we know the contemporary culture. thus, noting parallels to Zoroastrianism may simply be scholarship. for example, i don't think we should *ignore* a very close parallel to the Zoroastrian practice of not having tashmish in the day, together with the variations. it is what you do with that scholarship and what you emphasize that might make the difference from certain unnamed blogs.

kol tuv,
josh

 
At Thu Jul 23, 03:36:00 PM 2009, Blogger Neshama said...

I see that this date is once again in view.
http://habayitah.blogspot.com/2009/02/next-year-on-our-calendar.html

 
At Sat Jan 02, 08:39:00 PM 2010, Anonymous Barbara said...

well i can say that we are seeing many signs these days i am not jewish but very much respect and love my brothers land and thoughts, and also i agree on there topics rather than any of the other ways, i am to very impatient and cant wait! and am finding myself here reading your thoughts as well, all i can do is wait and tell myself with all the Problems that is happening around and growing more everyday our moshiach has to come soon please come soon.
to all yisrael with love

 
At Sat Feb 20, 05:30:00 PM 2010, Anonymous Anonymous said...

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At Tue Sep 14, 04:02:00 PM 2010, Blogger Dave said...

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