Bizui Talmidei Hachamim
I'm not one to be giving Tochaha. Believe me, I'm one that needs a lot of it.
I just want to remind some of those who commented in the previous post (and the entire jblogosphere, including myself, for that matter) of a few statements of Hazal, Rishonim, and Aharonim regarding Bizui Talmidei Hachamim.
א"ר יהודה לא חרבה ירושלים אלא בשביל שביזו בה ת"ח שנאמר (דברי הימים ב לו) ויהיו מלעיבים במלאכי האלהים ובוזים דבריו ומתעתעים בנביאיו עד עלות חמת ה' בעמו עד [ל]אין מרפא מאי עד לאין מרפא אמר רב יהודה אמר רב כל המבזה ת"ח אין לו רפואה למכתו
Gemara Shabbat 119b
אפיקורוס: רבי ורבי חנינא אמרי תרוייהו זה המבזה ת"ח
Gemara Sanhedrin 99b
יומא חד חזאי ריחשא דקא נפיק מאוניה חלש דעתאי איתחזי לי בחלמא אמר לי לא מידי הוא יומא חד שמעי בזילותא דצורבא מרבנן ולא מחאי כדבעי לי
Gemara Bava Metzia 84b
...מדור הראשון בור
בהאי מדור, דנין לאותן שקוטפין מלוח עלי שיח, המפסיקים דברים שנתנו בלוחות, עלי שיחה בטילה. ואותם שאינן נוהגים כבוד בתלמידי חכמים. ואין דנין במקום הזה למבזה תלמיד חכם, כי דנין אותו בטיט היון...וגו
ובמדור הראשון מורידים ודנין המבזה ת"ח בלבו, אע"פ שכבדום לפני אחרים...וגו
המדור הרביעי, נקרא טיט היון
Zohar Hadash Midrash Rut Ma'amar Zayin Madurei Gehinnom
יג [יא] עוון גדול הוא לבזות את החכמים, או לשנוא אותן: לא חרבה ירושלים, עד שביזו בה תלמידי חכמים--שנאמר "ויהיו מלעיבים, במלאכי האלוהים, ובוזים דבריו, ומיתעתעים בנביאיו" (דברי הימים ב לו,טז), כלומר בוזים מלמדי דבריו. וכן זה שאמרה תורה, "אם בחוקותיי תמאסו" (ויקרא כו,טו)--מלמדי חוקותיי תמאסו. וכל המבזה את החכמים--אין לו חלק לעולם הבא, והרי הוא בכלל "כי דבר ה' בזה" -במדבר טו,לא
יד [יב] אף על פי שהמבזה את החכמים, אין לו חלק לעולם הבא--אם באו עדים שביזהו, אפילו בדברים--חייב נידוי, ומנדין אותו בית דין ברבים, וקונסין אותו ליטרה זהב בכל מקום, ונותנין אותה לחכם. והמבזה את החכם בדברים, אפילו לאחר מיתה--מנדין אותו בית דין, והם מתירין אותו כשיחזור בתשובה; אבל אם היה החכם חי--אין מתירין לו, עד שירצה זה שנידוהו בשבילו.
Rambam Hilchot Talmud Torah Chapter 6 Laws 13-14
המבזה תלמיד חכם, והמסור. הם מכלל ואלו שאין להם חלק לעולם הבא ואין קמים בתחית המתים
Rav Hayim Vittal in Sha'arei Kedusha Part 2 Gate 6
קיימים כל מיני תלמידי-חכמים, עם כל מיני דעות וכל מיני שיטות, ואסור לבזותם גם אם אין מסכימים אתם. אלא שמצאו תחבולה מכוערת, שקיימת גם בנוגע לאהבת ישראל. כאשר תמהים: "איך אתה מדבר כך על יהודי, איפה אהבת ישראל"? יש משיבים: "ודאי, אהבת ישראל, אך יהודי זה יצא מכלל ישראל, הוא כופר, אפיקורוס, ערב רב"! תחבולה להתיר שנאת יהודים. וכן: "למה אתה מבזה תלמיד חכם"? והתשובה: "חלילה, איני מבזה תלמידי-חכמים, אך זה אינו תלמיד-חכם"! אבל הבזיון הגדול ביותר, זה לומר עליו שאינו תלמיד-חכם. ודאי שפלוני הוא תלמיד-חכם! אך אינו תלמיד-חכם שחושב כמוך, וגם כמוני. לפעמים יש חילוקי דעות בין תלמידי-חכמים, ולפעמים גם בין גדולי עולם, אפילו בדברים חמורים מאוד. יש רב חרדי ויש רב ציוני, שונה ממני, וכי בגלל זה הוא חדל מהיות תלמיד-חכם?! כלפיו צריך חרדת קודש!
Rav Shlomo Aviner in Shu"t She'elat Shelomo
There's plenty more to add, but not much more needed to add.
posted by yaak @ 2/16/2006 01:06:00 AM
20 comments
20 Comments:
From this you can learn how awesome the responsibility on a Talmid Chacham to live up to his presumed status. Even a Ketem on his clothing he should avoid, because people might come to see in a lesser light.
What you're saying is true, but not learned from this. The quotes that I mentioned talk about the responsibility of people toward the Talmid Hacham - not vice-versa.
The problem is with 'religious political parties' is that politics is a world opposite of emes. Even more so in Israel where, because of the semi-socialist system, much institutional funding is via government channels and therefore through party influenced direction.
Money and power are being struggled over. Some of the Gedolim have felt it necessary to get their piece of the pie to enter the struggle. But it's not a clean struggle, it's filthy and by entering it they get hit with the mud.
Gedolim have taken positions on both sides regarding land, and I'm not one to dare to disagree with a Gadol Torah.
However, those who are also involved in the politics, fighting for the money and control (religious affairs, educational affairs for example), they place themselves in a position where their motives come in to the appearence of being suspect. Some of the mud sticks.
There's a reason we don't put milk and meat on the same table, and why if we're using soy products we put a sign of that on the table. One is not exempt from this if one is a rav, chacham, or gadol.
One is not exempt from this if one is a rav, chacham, or gadol.
This is exactly what I'm arguing is wrong.
דברי חיים בהשמטות לפ' ויקהל:
כנראה בעליל שהרבנים וחסידים והבע"ב שבדור המה בעוה"ר רובן מ"ערב רב", ורוצים לשרור על הצבור, וכל מעשיהם רק לגרמי', לקבל כבוד וממון, ולכן אין להתחבר עמהם רק אם עובדים באמת, שמוסרים נפשם לד' לא לקבל שום תועלת לעצמם
Divrei Chayim, addendum to Parshat VaYakhel:
It is obviously clear that the Rabbanim, and the Chassidim, and the Baalei Batim in this generation are from the most part from the Erev Rav, and they want to rule over the masses to receive honor and money. Therefore, we must not connect to them, only with those who serve in Truth and serve HaShem with Mesirut Nefesh, without receiving anything for themselves.
The above is obviously not referring to proven Talmidei Hachamim and Gedolei Hador.
If you mean to say tautology, you are right of course. If you mean to say something real, you are wrong.
Of course the real Gedolim are not from the Erev Rav. Real Gedolim are also guarded from issuing halachic rulings that contribute to great loss of life.
May Rav Ovadia Yosef do Teshuva and acknowledge his mistake, in the footsteps of Rava and Rabbeinu Yona.
It is well-known that the Litvische camp (Rav Shach, talmidei Reb Moshe Feinstein, ...) was very nervous about Oslo. The reason: a theoretical mahalach of many years was suddenly put to test. It failed. This has to be acknowledged. Without Truth there is no Torah.
Anonymous commenters,
The difference between me and you is that I would never say Rav Ovadia needs to do Teshuva. If you see a Tsaddik do an Aveira at night, you may not be Meharher Aharav the next day.
If you don't consider Rav Ovadia a Tsaddik, then you've got a bigger problem than I can handle.
My view is you must separate a Pesak Din made, no matter what the outcome, from the man who made it. Was the end result of the Pesak Din disasterous? Yes. Is Rav Ovadia to blame? No. (See the first paragraph.) If this makes no sense to you, read it a few times.
I read the first paragraph a few times. Suppose it applies, what if the Tsaddik did something in the night that brought disaster to the Klal? What if he is, because his followers are not being meharher, still in the position to bring disaster? What about the obligation to protest for reasons of Pikuach Nefesh? Not Pikuach Nefesh for an individual. Pikuach Nefesh on national level. Giving Kavod is still more important?
But I do not think the paragraph applies. The action was in bright daylight.
You entertain the possibility that I think he is not a Tsaddik. Indeed, that is another reason the paragraph does not apply in my eyes. There are just too many indications. On the positive side, I have only his books about halacha, and even in these books I find much doubt.
And if you would argue that the Shas movement did so much good, I would very fiercely argue that it did much harm also.
Yaak, I would like to ask you a few questions.
Do you think it is a coincidence that both Oslo and Hitnatkut were in the hands of a Gadol?
Can you really, with complete confidence, reassure people that there vote for Shas (Aguda) is in good hands because a Gadol is leading it?
You say we cannot call upon a Gadol to do Teshuva. Can we at least register that he did not do Teshuva?
Do we have the right to be afraid?
Yaak, חזק ואמץ,
Yashar Koach on this true Torah sources, sources that people tend to dismiss.
We're in an era that everyone thinks he knows better than everybody. The problem starts when people forget that Torah has its own set of rules.
Thank you for sharing a point of view that is hard to share nowadays.
Remember, a live fish can be spotted only if he swims against the river flow direction.
Good Shavua!
Torah indeed has its own set of rules. One of the rules is that one should speak up if one knows the truth.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=3043
To the commenter who said חזק ואמץ, thanks!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=3043
A glaring example of Bizui Talmidei Hachamim.
It's a shame, because I like most of what she writes otherwise.
This proves how most people are ignorant of the sources mentioned in the post.
Yaak, I would like to ask you a few questions.
Do you think it is a coincidence that both Oslo and Hitnatkut were in the hands of a Gadol?
Rav Elyashiv had his reasons too. Nothing is coincidence, and it's all part of Hashem's plan, as difficult as it is for us to understand.
Can you really, with complete confidence, reassure people that there vote for Shas (Aguda) is in good hands because a Gadol is leading it?
Yes.
You say we cannot call upon a Gadol to do Teshuva. Can we at least register that he did not do Teshuva?
No, we cannot register that as mentioned earlier.
Do we have the right to be afraid?
A right? Of course.
Should we? That's a philosophical question. As Rav Nachman says "VeHaIkar - Lo Lefahed Kelal".
"This proves how most people are ignorant of the sources mentioned in the post."
A pure sould does it automatically. Ellen has a pure soul. A pure soul also knows who is a Tsaddik and who is not.
"Rav Elyashiv had his reasons too. Nothing is coincidence, and it's all part of Hashem's plan, as difficult as it is for us to understand."
Perhaps you should try to figure out whether the "coincidence" has a message for you?
I thought about what really separates us, and I think it is in the words you explicitly rejected.
Torah is rooted in Truth. Torah is not a set of rules. Torah is not Halacha. Halacha is part of Torah, and as such based on logic and Truth. We do not follow a set of rules because we were born in this. We follow Torah because of the Truth.
The Halachot you cited here are very valid, and deeply rooted in Truth.
But. Logic demands that we do not follow our "gedolim" blindly. Our task is not to be a herd of robots. We have the right to determine if someone is a "man of G-d". We have the right to change our opinion. Stronger, we have a holy obligation: We must follow the Truth, not man. Not only logic demands this. There are many sources. Em HaBanim Smecha is one.
I acknowledge the road is very narrow. Many go astray, in two directions.
My heart is heavy, but the Truth demands that we not deny: Rav Yosef, Rav Elyashiv and his Moetza are responsible (I did not use the word "blame") for Oslo and Hitnatkut.
All this will lead to a great tikun, and our job is to work towards that. Pray for our gedolim, that they find the strength to acknowledge their mistakes. It might be the key to the Geula.
"The above is obviously not referring to proven Talmidei Hachamim and Gedolei Hador."
Ok, but part of the problem is that sometimes people are cited as gedolim who are knowledgeable and maybe t"c of sorts but not really chachomim she'b'dor or close to that. And when they are in leadership positions, that is a problem. So when R aviner says this:
וכן: "למה אתה מבזה תלמיד חכם"? והתשובה: "חלילה, איני מבזה תלמידי-חכמים, אך זה אינו תלמיד-חכם"! אבל הבזיון הגדול ביותר, זה לומר עליו שאינו תלמיד-חכם.
I am not sure what to make of it. I think sometimes it's legit and the real fault is with people who insist that eveyrone with any title or position is a t"c of this class. Perhaps the issur is on anyone knowledgeable or who can be fairly called a t"C -- but if so, it would apply to many a kollel yungerman (in fact sometimes to the same kollel guy who may be upset with this more famous rabbi).
YY - how great of you to post this.
Thank G-d for people like you. Sometimes one has the impression that the DovBears and HamanSchool.coms rule the whole world.
Thanks a lot, and keep up the good work.
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