The Matzav
The situation in Israel seems bleak. "Seems" is the operative word.
Here is a list of recent victims of terrorist murder:
Chanan Barak, 20
Pavel Slutzker, 20
Eliyahu Asheri, 18
Yehuda Bassal, 21
and we pray for the safe return of the victim of terrorist kidnapping:
Gilad Shalit (Gilad Ben Aviva)
Rockets are flying everywhere.
The situation proves once again:
אין לנו על מי להשען אלא על אבינו שבשמים
Hacham Ovadia Yosef and the Melitzer Rebbe give us advice how to rectify the situation.
posted by yaak @ 7/06/2006 12:50:00 PM
27 comments
27 Comments:
Dear Yaak,
Can you please tell us what Rav Ovadia Yosef's, shlita, advice on how to rectify the situation? You can just write a very short description. It's just the link you left is in hebrew and my hebrew is horrific. Thanks!
Chaya Tova
He said that when people do Mitzvot, good deeds, Torah and Hesed down here, Hashem will reward those people up above. This is how we can affect the situation. He also said that we can trust only in Hashem.
Speaking about Eitzot, Rav Ovadia should acknowledge that he gave wrong advice to Rabin. The situation is Gaza is a direct consequence of the Oslo agreements. The key to the rectification is that Rav Ovadia should do Teshuva.
It seems that all these Moshiach-predicting rabbis are speaking out of distress and anguish caused by the frum support for the disengagement, which they know was a Horrendous Sin. In the case of Rav Ovadia, his support of Oslo clearly haunts him. Their end, not The End, is near.
Chabad did not support the disengagement.
Dear anonomous,
Please be careful about bashing Rav Ovadia, shlita. The Gemara in Sanhedrin 90 says a person can lose his place in the world to come disgracing a talmud chochim of such caliber. Also,we are taught that there are specific reasons why gedolim advice us to do things them "seem" wrong to us. There is mamish a specific reason for this phenominon of leaders telling us things that "seem" (the key word is "seem") wrong. But we still need to listen to our gedolim no matter what.
Chaya Tova
PS Yaak, thanks for translating what Rav Yosef, shlita, said.
About Rav Ovadia Shlita's Psak on Oslo, he said himself that he was misled by the army specialists that he consulted. As you know, according to Shulhan Aruch such matters must be ruled according to the army specialists. At the time of Rabin almost every army specialist in the IDF (I think all of them) said that Oslo will lessen the spilled blood of Jews in Israel. Hence Rav Ovadiah ruling came.
When Oslo II came (1995, before Rabin was shot), and the specialists proved obviously wrong, Rav Ovadiah Shlit"a changed his ruling, and this is the situation until now.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe in his Sichot (I think of 1979) bring a situation like the situation that Rav Ovadiah faced, and even according to the Rebbe, in such case a Rav's ruling must be to withdraw, only that the Rebbe says that the army specialists are lying because of a given order, as he found out. But the Reebe says that he know that LO BASHAMAYIM HI, and that a Rav must rule in this matter only by what he hears from the army specialists, and he only wishes at a similar case of 1979 that the Rav will try to find someone that isn't lying. Obviously in 1994 this was not a possibility, as later revealed by Army men.
To conclude, Rav Ovadiah Shlit'a did exactly as he must do according to Shulhan Aruch. Teshuva is not for those who were misled, only for those who were misleading.
However, the negative relation to Rav Ovadiah has nothing to do with his Psak (not to mention that he is being blamed by people who has not understanding in Halacha at all), only because his is a "Frenk" (Sfaradi), an eastern Jew, who gained enormous popularity in Israel, and he tries to make Israelis stick more to REAL Torah, not the forged Torah that some people are advocating in the comments here from time to time, VEHAMEVIN YAVIN.
Rav Ovadia was not misled by army specialists. Some may have given him wrong information, but others did not. And it is a posek's responsibility to check he asked the right experts.
Besides that, it was obvious to all but the very naive, and it must have been obvious to Rav Ovadia, that the Oslo accords had nothing to do with the desire to lessen the spilling of blood. And if you sat that this was not obvious to Rav Ovadia, how can you say he is a gadol in Torah?
The mention here of the Shulchan Aruch is spurious. The Psak of Rav Ovadia was wrong L'chatchila, as was made clear to him at the time by hundreds of scholars. It was even explicitly told to him that he was bringing rockets to Ashkelon. Believe me, it haunts him, today more than ever.
When will people accept that Torah IS the truth? If Rav Ovadia was the holy one you claim he is, the Oslo guilt, 1,500 Jews dead and masses of Jews maimed and mourning, would never have been associated to him! The disaster reveals the tum'ah, my friends. Even if you say that Siata D'shamaya would have failed him this one time, a gadol would have acknowledged and apologized. He did not.
This has nothing to do with him being Sefardi. Rav Elyashiv's support of disengagement compromises him in the same way. Moreover, all who did not protest, are compromised. And the Charedi world did not protest against Oslo, and barely against the Disengagement. The T'fila at the Kotel was too little too late.
The truth is the truth, and a true ben Torah accepts it from all who say it. A true ben Torah accepts Toachacha. It is my task to meet it out.
Rav Ovadia has proudly proclaimed in the past that Rabin came to him for advice on a regular basis, and that this prevented that he made a mistake. He proclaimed this until the beginning of the Sharon period, well after the disaster had become abundantly clear to everybody.
"There is mamish a specific reason for this phenominon of leaders telling us things that "seem" (the key word is "seem") wrong."
Yes, it exposes that they are not leaders of truth. I am among the Oslo mourners, having lost a dear one. Watch out about bashing the victims. I DO NOT give you permission to whitewash the crime.
"But we still need to listen to our gedolim no matter what."
This is unlogical, almost Avoda Zara, and certainly not true Torah.
Here is what said Rabbi Eliezer Ashkenazi, Talmid of Yosef Karo, in his commentary to Parashat Balak:
Concerning the faith in the (contemporary) human being, it is said in Parashath Nezavim (Devarim 29:13) “And not with you alone did I establish a covenant, …but with those who are here with us and with those who are not here today….” Therefore each and everyone of us, our children and grandchildren until the conclusion of all the generations who have entered the covenant, are duty bound to examine the secrets of the Torah and to straighten out our faith concerning it by accepting the truth from whomever says it…. Neither ought we be concerned about the logic of others – even if they preceded us – preventing our own individual investigation. Much to the contrary …. Just as (our forebears) did not wish to indiscriminately accept the truth from those who preceded them, and that which they did not choose (to accept), they rejected, so it is fitting for us to do... Only on the basis of the gathering of many different opinions will the truth be tested. Thus it is valuable to us to complete the views (of our predecessors) and to investigate (the meaning of the Torah) in accordance with our own mind’s understanding. And even if in the course of investigation into the secrets of the Torah through our love for it, we err, it will not be accounted for us even as an unwitting thing because our intent was for the sake of Heaven. But we shall be guilty if we desist from investigating the secrets of our Torah by declaring: The lions have already established supremacy, so let us accept their words as they are... Rather it is proper for us to investigate and analyze in according with our understanding and to write our interpretations for the good of those who come after us, whether they will agree or not …
You must struggle to scale the heights and to understand our Torah … and do not be dismayed by the names of the great personalities when you find them in disagreement with your belief; you must investigate and choose, because for this purpose were you created, and wisdom was granted you from Above, and this will benefit you...
Chaya Tova, the first Mishna in Horayot says that it is forbidden
to listen to a ruling of even Beit Din that one knows is wrong. The Mishna rules that if one acts obediently in such a case, one must bring a Korban.
Kal v'Chomer if the ruling is only by one Rav.
I am sorry if I was wrong but I was always under the impression you follow the gedolim even if they say your left is your right and vice versa. Hashem rules the world and if the gedolim advise us to do things that harm us physically, then it was Hashem's will this happen to us, I thought.
Please allow me to explain why I thought this:
Hashem decides who will live and who will die. The Gemara says that "everything is in the hands of Heaven accept for fear of Heaven." I believe that means that only our free will to choose good or evil is up to us. However, even Hashem decides if our plans to do good or evil will "come to fruition or not".
For example, if person A plans on harming or killing person B,it is person A's free will to choose evil but whether person A's wicked plans come to fruition is still in Hashem's hands. If Hashem does not want person B to die, then He will prevent/thwart person A from being successful. On the other hand, if Hashem wants person B to die, then he will allow person A's wicked plans to come to fruition.
Let's take this a step further. Many times our enemies, such as the Nazis, wanted to kill us. Hashem "allowed" their wicked plans to come to fruition. Hashem could have prevented the Nazis from harming us but He did not. Look at the Gulf War. Here is an example of when our enemies tried to kill us but this time, Hashem "prevented" their evil plans from coming to fruition.
Life and death is in Hashem's hands, not our enemies hands. Hashem decides who will die by the enemies sword and who will not. He simply allows our enemies to be successful when it is His will that we be killed or harmed. That is why it says in the Gemara that even if your enemies sword is at your throat, you should still pray to Hashem!!!
Many gedolim advised Jews to stay in Eastern Europe right before Hitler came to power. The Jews who listened to these gedolim had to go thru tht Holocaust. However, according to what I was taught, these Jews were "correct" to listen to their gedolim and stay in Eastern Europe because it was Hashem's will they be in the Holocaust. This is a very painful idea to grapple with but I was always taught this was the Torah's perspective. Hashem commands us to follow daas Torah (our gedolim) and if their suggestions lead us to death, than it was in Hashem's will that we die.
I was always taught that one can not run away from death if Hashem wants him to die.
If a person dies in a terrorist attack, chas vashalom, I thought that Judaism teaches that it was in Hashem's will for that person to die. That person would have died another way if not by a terrorist attack, I thought. I thought that when it was your time to go, you go.
I understand that this is very painful to comprehend but I really feel that Judaism teaches that when seemingly bad things happen to us, it was Hashem's will. It says in the Gemara that no one can harm you unless Hashem permits it. And then we have a seperate mitzvah to listen to the majority of our gedolim.
I myself was very very injured by a doctor making a terrible mistake on me and might be permanently damaged for life. But I thought it was Hashem "allowed" that doctor to make the mistake on me and that it is ultimately Hashem that causes us suffering, not other people. Other people are just vessels to do Hashem's will. This of course does not exempt wicked people like terrorists and nazis from being punished.
Hashem told Avraham that his descendants would slaves in a foreign land. Hashem allowed the Egyptions to harm us. However, He still held the Egyptions responsible and punished them.
I am open to the fact I am wrong and would be interested in hearing your response. I hope my post did not offend anyone. Thanks.
Chaya Tova
To follow them if they say left is right, is not very logical. But it says so in a Midrash in Sifri. Now, Midrash is not Halacha.
The Yerushalmi Talmud comments that
this is indeed not Halacha: "the Pasuk (Devarim 17:11) teaches us to follow them on right and Left, Only if they tell you that right is right and that left is left."
Be Blessed
And Talmud Bavli (Shabbat 54b) teaches us that Tsadikim have an obligation to protest, lest the punishment start with them. This is learned from the events surrounding Churban Bayit Rishon.
Anonymous,
We've been through this before. Your Bizayon for the great leaders of our generation while at the same time trying to bring "proofs" to this stance from our holy sources is appalling.
You're wrong here and you've been wrong before.
"Unlogical?" "Almost Avoda Zara?" "Not true Torah?"
Did you ever go to a Yeshiva and learn from a rabbi? Do you know what our tradition is all about?
I don't like getting upset at commenters, but your untruths must be exposed.
The commenter "Sfaradi" had it right on this issue. Listen to him. He knows from where he speaks.
I'm sorry you lost a loved one to Oslo. I truly am. Your emotions are likely talking for you, and I feel for you. As part of Kelal Yisrael, your loss is my loss as well.
This, however, does not give you a right to be Mevazeh a Talmid Hacham - no matter who he is - let alone a Gadol like Rav Ovadia.
Please read this post a few more times.
You are wrong, my brother. Please forgive, I suggest you yourself learn a bit more. It is not the Halacha to follow a Rav who switches left and right, as the Sifri says. Not if you understand yourself what is left and right. To some degree the Sifri is relevant to your personal Rav, and to some degree it is relevant to Sanhedrin. We do not *publicly* go against both. But we can and should leave our personal Rav if he goes astray. And we should in private go against Sanhedrin if we know it ruled wrong.
Sifri is Midrash, not Halacha. The Halacha follows the Mishna, as explained in the Yerushalmi.
We are not robots, and we are in fact forbidden to be robots. See what I cited from Rav Ashekazi (the translation is by Shlomo Riskin, by the way). I know that the Charedi world has this upside down. The comment of Chaya Tova illustrates the point. I told you before: big frum brother is ruling.
Understand it well Ya'ak. Something is approaching, but it is not the Redemption just yet. First falsehood will loose its power over the Torah world. The Torah world has become primitive, obsessions have come to take away the ikar. Believe me, the rockets are not falling because of immodest women. The rockets are falling because of the evil in the Charedi world which facilitated their launching. Mida k'neged Mida. If Teshuva does not come fast, the rockets will reach "your" world, Ya'ak. HaShem Yerachem.
Prophets were never popular.
Dear anonomous,
I am so sorry that you lost a loved one in a terrorist attack but I am very worried about your remarks.
Is there any well respected Torah authority who says the charedi world is "evil"?
Sure Rabbis make mistakes. But this does that mean they are evil. Many rishonim miscalculated the date of moshiach, does that make them evil? Many rabbis during Rabbi Akiva's time thought the wrong person was moshiach. When does making mistakes make one evil? What respected Rav says the whole charedi world is mamish evil? I went to Stern College of Yeshiva University full of modern orthodox rabbis and not one of them ever said the charedi world was "evil." They had different haskafot, but not one of them ever said they were evil.
You said, "Believe me, the rockets are not falling because of immodest women." Are you therefore saying that being immodest is not against the Torah? I agree there are other problems besides immodesty, but surely immodesty is also a problem as it is against the Torah. The reason the second temple was destroyed was for unwarrented hatred so not having proper ahavas yisrael is also a very terrible avera.
For you to think that a whole community of torah observant Jews is wicked stuns me beyond belief. If you have not met every jew in the charedi community, I can't understand how you can know they are evil. Although it is a mitzvah to hate a rasha, there is an opinion of Ben Azzai, in the Gemara, that says that since we can really never be 100% sure who a rasha is, it is better to be safe and hate no Jew because to mistakenly hate a non rasha is much much worse than foresaking the positive mitzvah of hating a rasha.
Please consider this. Thanks and no offense meant.
Chaya Tova
I still don't agree. Causing divisiveness is something that has delayed and continues to delay the Redemption. As Rav Kook, Zt"l, would say that Ahavat Hinam will cause the Beit Hamikdash to be rebuilt. Why don't you agree to unity? Why must there be rabbis at fault? If you are Noge'a Bedavar, please admit it.
Anyways, I'm interested in knowing where this quote from the Yerushalmi is. Please let me know.
Thanks.
Dear anonomous,
I am sorry if I misquoted you. I don't know how to edit my last post but I realized that you did not say that all charedim are evil. You just said there is evil in the charedi world. These statements are diffrent and I am sorry I misquoted you as I read your post very fast.
There is evil in all communities unfortunately because we are not perfect. But please understand that much chessed and good comes from charedi communities.
I am sorry if I misquoted or exaggerated your remarks. Sorry again.
Chaya Tova
מסכת הוריות דף ב,ב פרק א הלכה א
וכי יש זדון לשגגה ליחיד אצל הוריית ב"ד רבי אימי בשם רשב"ל מתניתא כגון שמעון בן עזאי יושב לפניהן. מה אנן קיימין אם ביודע כל התורה ואינו יודע אותו דבר אין זה שמעון בן עזאי ואם ביודע אותו הדבר ואינו יודע כל התורה שמעון בן עזאי הוא אצל אותו הדבר אלא כי נן קיימין ביודע כל התורה וביודע אותו הדבר אלא שהוא כטועה לומר תורה אמרה אחריהם אחריהם. ואם בטועה לומר התורה אמרה אחריהם אחריהם אין זה שמעון בן עזאי כהדא דתני יכול אם יאמרו לך על ימין שהיא שמאל ועל שמאל שהיא ימין תשמע להם ת"ל ללכת ימין ושמאל שיאמרו לך על ימין שהוא ימין ועל שמאל שהוא שמאל. מאי כדון רבי יוסי בשם רבי הילא לפי שבכל מקום שוגג פטור ומזיד חייב וכא אפילו מזיד פטור מפני שתלה בב"ד. חברייא בשם שמואל יחיד משלים לרוב הציבור היא מתניתא אבל כל יחיד ויחיד שעשה בפני עצמו פטור אמר רבי יוחנן אפילו כל יחיד ויחיד שעשה בפני עצמו מביא כשבה ושעירה. וקשיא על דעתיה דשמואל לא נמצא כל יחיד ויחיד מתכפר לו בשני חטאות רבי זעירא בשם שמואל היחיד תלוי אכלו רוב ב"ד מביאין אכלו מיעוט היחיד מביא.
בברכה
I believe in Unity around the truth. I do not believe the Charedi world is evil. It is a world with davka many Tsadikim. The problem is with the leadership. The situation is mirrored in Medinat Yisrael. The problem is not with Am Yisrael.
We are very close to a great clarification, which will be very painful to the Charedi community. But it will lead to great renewal of Torah, under very different leadership. And to Unity, indeed.
Chaya Tova, you are a wonderful Jew. Be blessed.
It should be superfluous, but to avoid any misunderstanding:
Of course immodest clothing is a major problem in our says, but it is not the worst of our problems. Extramarital affairs between people waring perfectly modest clothing is worse; I was confronted with this yesterday. Redifat Kesef and thievery are at least as bad. One cannot say that immodest clothing causes the rockets. There is direct reason for these rockets.
Of course it is good to do Mitzvot and Chesed, but it is kind of obvious? And it's kind of general. Davka for the problem at hand, davka Rav Ovadia has a direct remedy in his hands.
Dear Anonomous,
I hear your point. It seems to me that a jew who knows Torah is emes and dresses modestly externally but continually commits adultery with no tshuva is much worse than a tinok shenishba who does not dress modestly externally. It seems to me that when our leaders are calling for an emphasis on modesty, it is for all jews to improve!
In many ways it seems, us frum jews will be judged the most because we know better! We know that Torah is emes and about Hashem so we will be held to a much higher standard. We must do tshuva for our mistakes.
So I really understand what you mean. But I still believe from everything I learned that we should follow our gedolim. Although they are humans and of course can make mistakes, daas Torah is such a central theme of Judaism and that if we follow our gedolim, they will defend us in shamayim. We are like spiritual orphans if we do not have gedolim.
Thanks for the blessing and may you be blessed too!
Chaya Tova
Chaya Tova, it is a Mitzva to "make" yourself a Rav. So, in a sense it is ok to decide to go with a certain Gadol. Only, until we have Sanhedrin, things are not so clear cut. One gadol cannot have the authority of 70. And even Sanhedrin can make mistakes.
Things depend on one's learning also, and it can become very problematic, as you can see from the discussion between me and Yaak. We live in a time of clarification. Soon the period of "single" gedolim will be over, and we will have Sanhedrin (and no more discussions like this :-)).
Be Blessed.
The lubavitcher rebbe menachem mendyl disagreed with oslo chacham ovadia went with the govt that allowed it. I'll take my olam haba and olam hazeh with the rebbe of chabad thankyou.
Their cant be unity in israel chacham as long as we have a cancer in our midst the palestenians. The rebbe in all his years in all of israels wars was more adament about this then any of israels generals themselves.In life we make mistakes all of us -we do tshuvah - hopefully Hashem accepts it. Its about time the religious leaders who got in cohutes with oslo did tshuvah. Maybe that could bring more peace and unity to am yisrael.......
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