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Monday, January 18, 2010

Fascinating Limud Zechut for ZAKA

I was looking at the comments here and here.

Apparently, there are some people who are upset about ZAKA's desecration of Shabbat for the non-bnei-berit in Haiti since mishum eiva is only a heter for a shevut.
Some want to be melameid zechut by quoting poskim that they can rely on - namely the Hatam Sofer, who says that mishum eiva applies to de'oraitas and the me'iri, who says that piku'ah nefesh applies to benei no'ah too.

But some of the most innovative and fascinating Limudei Zechut that I found in the comments are to follow.

This one I found on comments 94, 100 and 103 in the VIN site (links added and some typos corrected):
Yesterday at 08:46 PM
Geshmak Says: I think the Haitians are from the Aseret Hashvatim.
Anonymous Says: Reply to #94 Show Quote

on what basis do you say that?
Anonymous Says: Reply to #100 Show Quote

The Igbo tribe of Nigeria,among which lived a number of jews, were among the african tribal groups who originally populated what is now Haiti over a thousand years ago, The igbo jews have claimed descent to several of the shafatim inlcuding Ephraim, Naphtali, Menasheh, Levi, Zevulun and Gad.

And here's another one - comment 28 from the Matzav site:

28. Comment from sg
Time January 17, 2010 at 6:12 PM

Unfortunately, hardly anyone commenting here, understands Halacha, that goes for both those who decry and those who are Melamed Zchus on Zaka. The bottom line is Zaka, just like Hatzola is a great organization, doing tremendous work and being Mekadesh Shem Shomayim. Zaka, certainly has a top notch Posekim who have already given it guidelines of exactly what it can and cannot do under the various circumstances that arise. The comment about Reb Moshe’s Heter is not correct or germane. I cannot spell out the entire Halacha here, but I will leave you with one historically based thought on the Halacha. When the French ruled Haiti in the 18th Century, it was all plantations with black slaves. The slaves revolted and made their own country about 1800. Some of the plantation owners were Jewish, of course they treated their slaves much better than the Goyim, and when the slaves revolted, they killed their Goyish owners, however, the Jewish owned slaves saved many of their owners from the mobs. Since it was a revolt (which Neapolitan later sent troops to suppress) it can be assumed the Jewish owned slaves were not Meshuchrarim and thus their decedents remain Avodim Canaanim, Ad Hayom. Assuming they have no knowledge of this and certainly they were never taught the Mitzvos for which they are technically obligated in, we would be required to be Mechalel Shabbos to save them as noted in Halacha that for Pikuach Nefesh an Eved Canaani has the din of a Yisroel. Thus even if 1 in 1000 Haitians descends from those Avodim Canaanim we are required to be Mechalel Shabbos to dig them all out.(Rambam Shabbos 2:20)


At Mon Jan 18, 05:44:00 AM 2010, Blogger Akiva said...

Facinating! Do you think that they today practice a very very clear form of avodah zarah makes a difference? (as well as a national holiday "burn a jew day'?)

At Mon Jan 18, 01:10:00 PM 2010, Blogger Mighty Garnel Ironheart said...

I can't see them being avadim in the halachic sense. They weren't circumcised or immersed, were they?

I'm not questioning ZAKA and their amazing efforts, to be clear. Just the avdus concept.

At Mon Jan 18, 02:19:00 PM 2010, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am sure I am wrong on this. I have far too much to learn.

However, I can't help but feel that ALL life is sacred to HaShem.

Can anyone truly look into the eyes of a suffering child threatened by death, and still debate if it is correct to save its life, Jew or Goy, on the Sabbath????

Until you can feel HaShem's miracle of a life growing within you, and give birth to that sacred miracle we call life, time is perhaps better spent contemplating the sacredness of that miracle.

At Mon Jan 18, 04:32:00 PM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

All you need for Piku'ah Nefesh to be doheh Shabbat is a Safeik. So, even if it's a small minority of these people having Jewish or Eved Kena'ani blood, that's good enough. Obviously, the majority of the population is not.

At Tue Jan 19, 12:32:00 PM 2010, Blogger Lady-Light said...

Very, very interesting post. Are you saying, Yaak, that if there is no safeik, that we know there is no "Jewish or even kena'ani blood" in them, that 'piku'ach nefesh' lo docheh Shabbat?

At Tue Jan 19, 02:00:00 PM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

As mentioned, we can do many things not normally done due to the "Mishum Eivah" reason.

At Tue Jan 19, 11:49:00 PM 2010, Blogger madaral said...

There should be a positive counterpart to Mishum Eivah. Let me call it Mishum Ahavat HaShem, or Mishum Giur. If a Jew saves a non-Jew, it must be that "Mishum" the non-Jew will be drawn closer to HaShem, "Mishum" he will become a Ger Tzedek, "Mishum" he will return the favor and save a Jew, or Klal Yisrael. When Mishum Eivah really applies, Mishum Ahavat HaShem is moot. But when Mishum Eivah becomes moot, Mishum Ahavat HaShem should apply.

At Wed Jan 20, 12:39:00 AM 2010, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like that the guy wrote the French sent assorted ice cream to restore order...

At Wed Jan 20, 02:24:00 AM 2010, Blogger smb said...

From what I remember reading somewhere, if a non-Jew near by can help them, then it's better that they do it, when it's on Shabbos

At Wed Jan 20, 09:19:00 AM 2010, Blogger yaak said...

lol, anonymous 12:39!
That's one typo I didn't correct. :)


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