More on Baba Elazar ZT"L
Shirat Devorah has a very interesting guest post.
Kikar says that Baba Elazar said a couple hours before he was murdered, "You need to know that we must be Moser Nefesh for the Creator's honor."
Also see at that same link comment #2, which wants to say that he was MBY.
Also at Kikar, a quote from the Penei Yehoshua that the deaths of Tzaddikim who were killed by fellow Jews is NOT an atonement.
Matzav, nevertheless, has Rav Chaim Kanievsky's letter to Baba Elazar's son:
“Rav Pinchos shlita,” Rav Chaim wrote, “it is with great sadness that we heard about what happened. This is a painful gezeirah and it should be for a kapparah. May Hashem comfort you among the mourners of Tzion and Yerushalayim.”
Also at Matzav, Rav Shteinman, Rav Karelitz, and Rav Shmuel Auerbach said we need to strengthen our Bein Adam LaHaveiro.
Just a thought that occurred to me: we had a tragic killing of a Tzaddik by a Jew at the beginning of our Babylonian exile (Gedalia Ben Ahikam) and we just experienced another one at the end of the last exile of Edom. Perhaps, these were meant to be signals to mark the beginning and the end of the exile. Just a thought.
posted by yaak @ 7/31/2011 11:35:00 AM
18 comments
18 Comments:
please, do you know where i can get an english translation of what is written at kikar. thanks.
You can use google translate (which I know - isn't perfect).
Otherwise, you can tell me which article you want translated, and I'll give you a very brief summary.
Yaak, show me all the Tanach prophecies that MBY was or is to fulfill by this rabbi. There is not one. Enough lemons we make lemonade. Just like the buzz around Jerusalem that last weeks parsha fortold his unfortunate end. Take the pasuk in context and it has nothing to do with last week. Also, again, put together enough cherry picked words out of context and you get some supposed connection.
Such none sense. Will we ever wake up?
Shiloh,
I cannot argue with someone who does not accept the Torah Shebe'al Pe as being of divine origin. If you don't accept Zecharia 12:10 as referring to MBY or if you don't believe in the concept of MBY, mentioned in the Gemara Sukka 52, then there's nothing to discuss.
If one doesn't accept the authority of Rashi, Metzudat David and the Malbim, who all say that Zecharia 12:10 is referring to MBY, then I cannot help you.
This blog assumes some basic belief system. Will you ever wake up? I pray you do.
Rabbi Elazar zl was Kodesh HaKodashim. I am certain that he knew that Asher Dahan would come to murder him Thursday night. I am also sure Rabbi Elazar knew that this was a Gezera Shamayim and that he was not allowed to prevent this from happening. This reminds me of The Ten Martyrs who are mentioned in the Yom Kippur prayer. The Ten Martyrs could have easily destroyed the entire Roman army just as Rabbi Elazar could have easily neutralized Asher Dahan. However, they knew that it was a Gezera Shamayim and they let it happen.
One need not be a kofer in torah shebaal peh, in see that the tragic loss of baba elazar has no connection to mby, other than a cute pun.
where did he do any of the acts of mby? where was the war? where is armilus? where is the big hesped? and the list goes on. the only thing this has in common with the gemara in succa is that a rabbi is murdered.
so you will claim that its all just a concept, and is not literal. so why would the actual killing not be a concept too?
Anonymous, you ask good questions. To address one of your questions, a big hesped is planned.
the hesped in the gemara, is seemingly in front of the body of mby.
רש"י סוכה דף נב/א
והביטו אלי את אשר דקרו - יסתכלו בהרוג שלפניהם
Yaak, I woke up years ago, this is why I don't buy the schtick as being divine, believe as you wish.
Since the 'oral Torah' was never once mentioned in the written Torah, something so divine as you speculate should have possibly had one mention. Lets not quibble over such minor differences.
Lets use your sources along with Tanach and I will gladly add many more from the Talmud of which my only question is did this rabbi fulfill these. I'll just throw them out randomly and if he passes the test, no problem.
Your one source Zecharia 12:10, where's the problem? I will add Michah 5:1 where he speaks clearly of Mashiach. MBY and MBD. Dual Mashiachs from the Tanach, sure.
How about what the Rambam said based on Tzephanyah 3:9 and Sanhedrin 91b, "He will arrange the whole world to serve only [Elohim}, as it is said, 'For then I shall convert the lips of the kindreds to a b'rurah language for them all to call upon the Name of haShem, and, as one, to Serve Him". Did he do this?
How about this in sefer Daniel? 9:24-27. Historical fact 465-453 BCE accordingly proven by archeology. Daniel 9:25 "until (Mashiach) the nagid shall be seven septets" Each septet has long been recognized by virtually all Jewish commentators as a seven-year period (All prominent Jewish Sages have interpreted this "week" as a seven-year period is as foung in Bereishit 29:27-28). Thus this brings the window forward seven, seven year periods (49 years) to 416-404 BCE. Now Daniel 9:26 "Then, after sixty-two septets, the Mashiach will be cut-off" Sixty two seven year periods +434 years which now brings us to the window of 18 CE to 30 CE. Yaak, really, it does not take rocket science to see that this rabbi did not live then. If it was him from before, he reincarnated or was risen from the dead, he is now dead and cannot be MBY or MBD today. Hell, unless Daniel was wrong.
Who said I don't believe in MBY?
Anonymous and Shiloh,
OK, let's say לפניהם means before burial. There was a large funeral with Hespedim. Also, can we not say that all those people who saw the headlines on their computer screens had a virtual Hesped? I most definitely would, even though it's not in the traditional sense.
MBY is one of the most obscure characters in our sources so I don't think you can ask, "So and so cannot be MBY because he didn't do such and such!" There are so many Mahlokot involved. The Rambam only gave identifying factors to MBD - not MBY.
Continued,
How about Micah 5:1? Nope, since it is only Arabs today.
Lets look if we can at Nehemia 7:63. Since there is no record of geneology, none where qualified for the preisthood. So today, all Kohanim are ceremonial, without proof according to the Tanach. So much more so for the Mashiach, no? Where is the surviving geneology up to today? Zip, Zero, nada. Can't be him now Yaak.
How about this silly little reference? Yehezkel 44:1-3. According to Rashi, yes Rashi, this is either the Kohen Gadol, the king, or the Messiah (Metzudos). Not only is the gate controlled by the muslims, there is a cemetary there so no human Jew can pass without being defiled. Sorry, no cigar here Yaak.
Here is a Rashi, yes Yaak, another Rashi. "If Moshiach is from those who are alive now, [then] surely he is Rabbeinu Hakadosh [Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi] who suffers sicnesses and is an absolute saint...If he is from those who have already died, [then] he is Daniel, the delightful one, who was concemned to suffer the lions' den and was an absolute saint." In the second to last Rashi, in the book of Daniel he writes "The Moshiach will reveal himself and then be concealed... and then revealed once more, and so it says in the Midrash Ruth and in poems of the Rabbi Eliezer ha-Kalir." So you see Yaak, lemons=lemonade.
I could go on and on.
Anon, rofl. Glad us kofers are so ignorant.
Yaak, the Tanach is rather clear when taken in it's entirety and in proper context. It's us who have misinterpreted it. Even some who so arrogantly state for example, "Daniel must be wrong." He's in the rova for a hint.
Have a great day, hope it's cooled down some. Here in Jerusalem, finally got some bread from the unseasonally high temperatures.
It ain't him, sorry.
No one said Daniel is wrong, but there are many different views, and it is by no means clear what he means.
"It ain't him, sorry"
You might be right, but to say it with certainty seems to carry the same character trait that you attribute to those who say Daniel is wrong.
Yaak, would you like the name of the rabbi who stated the time period for the Mashiach to be cut off is wrong in the book of Daniel?
My God Yaak, the book of Daniel is unclear? It's so simple the pasuk we are talking about. Its not rocket science, it's not taking verses backwards and adding letters, it's not the magical gematria (which is brought to us via the goyim, let's not quibble about that either). The plain text, meaning confirmed by Sages.
Yaak, you tell me to wake up, when will I get it. I am giving you the plain meanings. A child can understand this. Forest for the trees. Think about it.
Now you revert to comparing me to a rabbi who lives in the Rova running around saying that Daniel must be mistaken about this prophecy of when the messiah will be killed. Answer the quotes I gave you Yaak instead of using ad hominem slander. You can have a better come back then that.
Shiloh, I apologize for my insults. You got me carried away, and I should know better - especially this time of year. I'm sorry.
That said, there's no point arguing with you if you are not going to accept certain basic principles, like the fact that there's Peshat, Remez, Derush, and Sod. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.
No problem, it's fun to get caught up in all of this. You should see the behaviour out on the streets here, wow.
A wise man learns from everyone Yaak. It's only a waste of time when one cannot or refuses to listen to someone who disagrees with someone, where someone has already been. We are all at different stages.
Like your fellow blogger Akiva, we had a unusually (ok, a usual) strong disagreement, but we agreed to a shwarma for the winner in the end.
We have truth, but we all have error Yaak, and I am filtering out this stuff and sure it's going to cause discomfort on all sides.
Have a great afternoon.
Just so you know, I met with your fellow former grade student from Chicago and I asked him some questions about their schtick. He had no answer, it was not difficult but on the lines of what we are discussing here. I p'eed him off also. So, don't feel like you are alone. I am hated by most anyway. Hey, shwarma deal?
Mby must b killed by a goi...not a jew as explained in the pnai yehoshua ,as braught in bhol.co.il ...
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