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Wednesday, February 05, 2014

Why the Rabbis' Letter to John Kerry is Correct and the RCA and OU are Wrong for Denouncing It

Click to Enlarge (found here)

John Kerry is trying to divide Eretz Yisrael among 2 peoples - plain and simple.  This letter tells it like it is - Hashem will punish those who try to do harm to the integrity of Eretz Yisrael for the Jewish people.

Unfortunately, the RCA and OU repudiated this letter (also found here and here and here) for reasons that they consider the wording in the letter "extreme and offensive rhetoric" and "personal venom and threats".  It is nothing of the sort.  Rather, it is telling it like it is as described by the Torah.  Those who do harm to Israel - even while claiming that they are only helping it - will be punished.  Plain and simple.

Don't you wish the RCA and OU leadership understood that simple fact?

27 Comments:

At Wed Feb 05, 08:47:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Don't you wish the RCA and OU leadership understood that simple fact?"

No. It is what it is. Now is the time of decision. RCA and OU made their decisions a long time ago. We all know that, but still religiously hold on to them. It's time to let them go...
Yosef

 
At Wed Feb 05, 09:29:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Im not davening in a rca or ou shul again . Hashem yerachem on those who hear there arrogance and still pray there . As for the letter strong but honest ,and necessary for sure ie 20% of the population , and the better 20% at that . Hashem strengthen us in the face of Amalak the enemy , ie adar purim " zachor amalak ". I just wish we had a leader with the backbone to say Obama/Kerry/abas/eu /Vatican / livni back off. Maybe Bennett and or feiglin will be blessed from above against the enemy .

 
At Thu Feb 06, 05:45:00 AM 2014, Blogger Neshama said...

Totally in agreement. Anon 2, I second your motion. It's about time we used the correct wording to Keri's obsessions.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 09:38:00 AM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

This post was not trying to show how the RCA is bad - it's not - and its leadership is corrupt - it's not. I can personally attest that the RCA is filled with wonderful people who are Yir'ei Shamayim.

I just believe that they majorly erred in this case, being too hasty in sending out this repudiation (probably without even reading the letter, as it seems from the fact that they used the phrase "The reports indicate...").

 
At Thu Feb 06, 10:55:00 AM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most people forgot what happen to Sharon when he displaced and gave piece for peace and there was none.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 02:01:00 PM 2014, Blogger Jacob said...

Yaak:

What are your thoughts about the Rishon Letzion Rav Yitzhak Yosef reiterating that territorial concessions in exchange for real peace is permitted al pi halakha?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/chief-rabbi-jewish-law-permits-territorial-concession-for-peace/

I think that might put the RCA/OU's statement into perspective.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 02:07:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

No, it does not put their statement into perspective.

Rav Yitzhak Yosef, like his father before him, realizes the importance of keeping the entirety of Eretz Yisrael for the Jewish people.

However, if via a TRUE AND REAL peace, as Rav Yosef clearly delineates, then it is permitted to give up land, as saving lives is more important than keeping land. Unfortunately, any negotiating with Abbas will not result in a TRUE AND REAL peace, and is therefore misguided and cruel. Thus, the rabbis' statement is justified and the RCA/OU's is way out of line.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 02:37:00 PM 2014, Blogger Michael Lipelis said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 03:01:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Michael,

Sorry, I had to delete your comment for the language used therein. Please restate your comment using language more fitting for a religious blog, if you so choose. Thanks.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 03:16:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kudos to the Rabbis and shame on both the RCA and OU. Truth is that there is no excuse that you can give to them, except that it was purely political correctness (which for Rabbis should be a no-no). We are at a time where no sitting on the fence anymore; it is the integrity of EY. Hashem sees all, knows all. Also, the reason we cannot agree with HaRav Yitzchak Yosef at this time is because it is a crystal, clear understood that there cannot and never will be peace with these amaleikim; so the pikuach nefesh bit doesn't work. The integrity of Eretz Yisrael rises above hakol. Remember the sin of the spies and its consequences. Hashem is with us when BnaiYisrael is with HIM.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 03:24:00 PM 2014, Blogger Jacob said...

However, if via a TRUE AND REAL peace, as Rav Yosef clearly delineates, then it is permitted to give up land, as saving lives is more important than keeping land.

Forgive me for believing that the RCA/OU's statement is much more in line with your even own depiction of R' Yitzhak Yosef's comment than the committee's letter.

If the letter (like you) had spent more time focused on the fact that we currently have no reliable negotiating partner, and less time making unequivocal statements about zero concessions and Divine retribution, then I would agree that the RCA/OU is out of line. But after rereading their statement a couple more times, I think it was spot on.




 
At Thu Feb 06, 03:38:00 PM 2014, Blogger Michael Lipelis said...

What was the tone of the language moses used to talk to the people and then understand why he asked his brother the "diplomat" for assistence . The words were fanatic in nature (who is for hashem) are jewish people realy ready to stand behind such a man and accept the reinstatment of the mitzvah to 1,kickout 2kill 3leave non alive of the cananites in the land of israel

 
At Thu Feb 06, 03:42:00 PM 2014, Blogger Michael Lipelis said...

Ask ur selves are u children of cain or havel ,

 
At Thu Feb 06, 03:44:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Jacob,

What do you have against warning against Divine retribution?

Did not Moshe Rabbeinu do it to Par'oh?

Did not Moshe Rabbeinu do it to Korah?

Did not Yirmiyahu do it to the people of his generation?

I too had reread the statement many times as well before posting what I posted, and still consider it way out of line. As I said earlier, I don't think the RCA or OU actually read the letter before writing what they wrote. I believe that they got their information from media reports, which, of course, are biased in one way (to make headlines). The rabbis statements are not "threats" at all! They are warnings. Huge difference.

Rav Yosef Shlit"a may disagree with nuances with these rabbis, but he agrees that such an agreement requires real peace and the road to peace is not via any Palestinian leader that will arise in the next generation.

This is a far cry from the RCA statement that basically says that one may not warn meddling Secretaries of State what happens to those who harm the Jewish people in any way. What idiocy! I believe that Rav Yosef Shlit"a would agree that it is idiotic.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 04:00:00 PM 2014, Blogger Jacob said...

What do you have against warning against Divine retribution?

Did not Moshe Rabbeinu do it to Par'oh?

Did not Moshe Rabbeinu do it to Korah?

Did not Yirmiyahu do it to the people of his generation?


Yaak:

Just out of curiosity, do you often visit churches in your area declaring that they are all liable to be put to death for worshiping avoda zara? Look, we are all in agreement that we believe and hope in the coming of Mashiach. I guess there is just a question of how we get there. Is diplomacy in any form out of the realm of your thought process?


Also -

You call territorial concessions a "nuance" that differentiates R' Yitzhak Yosef from these rabbis? Well if so, that is the biggest "nuance" that I have ever seen.



 
At Thu Feb 06, 04:11:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

Just out of curiosity, do you often visit churches in your area declaring that they are all liable to be put to death for worshiping avoda zara?

What a terrible comparison! Are the churches in my area threatening my security, my home, or homeland in any way?

Is diplomacy in any form out of the realm of your thought process?

If this said diplomacy were with rational peace-loving people, I'm all for diplomacy. And I would with a heavy heart make some sort of concession for peace. Peace with the Palestinians is an illusion - at least in the next generation and most likely longer.

You call territorial concessions a "nuance" that differentiates R' Yitzhak Yosef from these rabbis? Well if so, that is the biggest "nuance" that I have ever seen.

Don't forget Rav Yitzhak Yosef had a brother - Rav Yaakov Yosef ZT"L, who teamed up with these same rabbis often. (They too had differences, but they were very close politically.) Rav Yitzhak is not a right-winger, and disagreed with his brother, but a very far cry from what Kerry wants to do. Yes, I call it a nuance. Rav Yitzhak agrees that territorial concessions can be made with TRUE AND REAL peace. Do you see that happening in the next 30 years at the very least? I sure don't. So, in essence, Rav Yitzhak and these rabbis agree not to give up any land right now.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 04:24:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sure, we've all heard of the saying that democratic societies can make peace with other democratic societies; but peace cannot be between a free thinking people and dictatorships. The former makes peace diplomatically, the latter with violence. Agree with Yaak about the comparison that Jacob made, really NO comparison.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 04:55:00 PM 2014, Blogger Jacob said...

Look, I am in no way a fan of Kerry's efforts here. In fact, I hate it and am quite certain it will fail, as much, if not more so than Oslo I and II. But my point (in making that church comparison and in general) was a rhetorical response to Yaak's comparison to cases in Tanakh. Just because something may be true does not mean that it should be uttered at all places at all times.

R' Yitzhak has reiterated his father zt'l's heter for territorial concessions. That means that the power to apply that heter rests in the hands of human beings, i.e. rabbis who, be'ezrat Hashem, will make the correct decisions. In that framework, the rabbis of the committee are, as the RCA and OU point out "playing the role of G-d", in declaring who and who is not worthy of Divine retribution.

Even though we have no trustworthy partner for peace for the near future, I do believe there is a value in projecting the idea that Israel is generally interested in peace as an ideal rather than the notion that we are some kind of fanatical totalitarian people.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 05:03:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

In that framework, the rabbis of the committee are, as the RCA and OU point out "playing the role of G-d", in declaring who and who is not worthy of Divine retribution.

But they are not playing the role of G-d!! This is part of the RCA/OU's big mistake. They are showing historically what happens to those who try to harm us by forcing concessions down our throats. And Haman learned that the hard way.

I do believe there is a value in projecting the idea that Israel is generally interested in peace as an ideal rather than the notion that we are some kind of fanatical totalitarian people.

Very much agreed. To that end, the rabbis' letter is a wonderful example of how we are interested in peace instead of war and how having a fanatical, totalitarian regime right next door is a VERY bad idea.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 05:20:00 PM 2014, Blogger Jacob said...

Fair enough. I guess I just agree with the RCA rabbis that the letter projected no such sentiment.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 05:39:00 PM 2014, Blogger yaak said...

The letter projected no such sentiment that they want to live in peace????!!!!

What does "Your battle against the Creator imperils the safety of the six million Jews" sound like to you? That they are fanatics who want war?!?!

 
At Thu Feb 06, 06:03:00 PM 2014, Blogger Jacob said...

Just saying you want to live in peace doesn't mitigate the problem. After all, the Palestinians also say they want to live in "peace", reasoning much the same way that these rabbis believe that G-d gave them the land of Israel. Warning an American diplomat of Divine punishment and implicitly comparing him to Haman doesnt help in setting us apart from Palestinians in the worlds eyes, im afraid.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 06:23:00 PM 2014, Blogger Michael Lipelis said...

Maybe just maybe it could be time to get testostirone fortified, and u know defend ourselves , build houses for the populus without having to ask pmp america for permission (yess master) maybe we impose the death penelty on convicted suicide bomber wanabes

 
At Thu Feb 06, 10:25:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hope Bennett is blessed to give bibi strength against those wanna bees who wish to take "biblical homelands of Abraham " from the state of Israel >Abishter please bless your people and the bnei noach of the world to keep in the face of adversity the biblical homeland of the only one in the whole bible you call " my friend " Abraham our forefather.

 
At Thu Feb 06, 10:45:00 PM 2014, Anonymous Mrss said...


These Rabbis are not followers of R. Yosef but of the Lubavitcher Rebbe who held that it puts Jewish lives in danger to give away land in Eretz Yisroel and that Eretz Yisroel belongs to the Jewish people and no one has a right to give any of it away. For the Lubavitcher Rebbe's views, see truepeace.org.
The rabbis might be more effective by showing Kerry where Hashem has promised Eretz Yisroel to the Jewish people and shown him how any previous piece treaties resulted in rocket attacks and calls for giving away more land. I don't think the Lubavitcher Rebbe ever threatened Carter with Divine retribution over Camp David.

 
At Fri Feb 07, 12:03:00 AM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

to mss chabad your taking the satamar point of view which is put the state of Israel into Palestinian control , because we as jews are not allowed to have a government in Israel that's not made by God .

 
At Fri Feb 07, 11:34:00 AM 2014, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do not agree with the last # of commenters. No one has the right to give away even a grain of sand of EY. Jacob and most cannot seem to lose an iota of their galut mentality. It is as simple as that. Any which way, it is only the Ribbono Shel Olam Who runs everything. Everything is leading us to the Geulah. After 70 years from the Shoah but little has been learned by our Yidden, r'l. We pray Geulah will come b'rachamim; Olam Chesed Yibaneh!

 

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