Wednesday, July 06, 2005

Gog Umagog Is Over 3

I mentioned some time ago R' Lazer Brody's rebbe - the Melitzer Rebbe - saying that Gog Umagog already happened during the Holocaust. I questioned that assertion based on some of the Pesukim.

It turns out that there's a whole discussion about it over at Ledavid.com.

Check it out.

11 Comments:

At Wed Jul 06, 02:50:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Could you summarize the discussion for those of us who can't follow the Hebrew?

 
At Wed Jul 06, 05:45:00 PM 2005, Blogger yaak said...

Well, a poster named "David" asked basically the same question that I did.

The moderator "Ani Maamin" then quoted the Rambam who says that prophecies of punishment don't necesarily have to come true.

To which "David" countered that Gog Umagog is not a regular prophecy that this applies to.

Ani Ma'amin then said that Gog Umagog comes in stages and that the first 2 parts (1st 2 world wars) were against the Jews, but the third part will be against the non-Jews.

David asked that still, this has nothing to do with Yerushalayim.

A third poster says that they had tried to conquer Yerushalayim in the 2nd world war, and in the third, the Americans will capture Yerushalayim.

There's more, but I ran out of time.

 
At Thu Jul 07, 02:54:00 AM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can anyone enlighten me as to
how was WW1 against the Jews?

 
At Thu Jul 07, 06:34:00 AM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"...the Americans will capture Yerushalayim."

I'd like to know the source upon which he bases that statement.

On the other hand, Zohar I, Va'era 32a says, (in part) "...the Holy Land will not fall to the hands of Edom."

Based on numerous sources which I have learned over the years, this is the scenario I envision:

Either due to the outcry that precedes or the outcry that follows the hitnatkut (our choice), Mashiach ben Yosef will be revealed and arise to deliver us from the Erev Rav regime. That done, he will then arise to rid the Land of its foreign element. Israel will cease to be a pluralistic, democratic, anti-Torah regime "like all the other nations." This is what will enrage the world and bring them against us. They will think to invade and take it over like they have done in Iraq, but the end was decided millenia ago. This is why, I think, the Melitzer Rav says the war is over. Those who don't understand this will quake in fear as they see Gog coming upon the land, thinking that he might have success, but the end was already decided. He is coming to his graveyard and he is coming to be buried. (Yechezkel 39:11)

And "...the Holy Land will not fall to the hands of Edom."

 
At Thu Jul 07, 04:29:00 PM 2005, Blogger Yaakov said...

Regarding Gog u-Magog, two things:

1) Read the meforashim on Zecharia and Yechezkiel (primary sources for Gog u-Magog). It is clear that the neviim are describing destruction on the goyim, and that while it may be frightful for unprepared Yidden, in truth they will not be harmed (not unlike the Gulf War--Israelis were terrified, wondering if they should go down to the bomb shelter or up to the sealed room. But once the terror passed, NO JEW WAS KILLED!

2) (from gog1.com, free translation):

We are happy to announce that we heard initial approval that was given by one of the tzaddikim in our generation that vengeance on the goyim has begun with the terror attack in England. This same tzaddik told his close associates over the previous month (Sivan) that this month the vengeance on the goyim would begin . One day before the attack he reminded his close associates that we are standing before "the last day" (referring, apparently, to the last day of Sivan), and today -- after the news of the explosions -- we heard that he gave the first assurance that this is the start of Hashem's vengeance on the goyim who hate Israel. We didn't hear details about what sort of things to expect to occur, but we only look forward to good (for the Jewish people), G-d willing.

 
At Thu Jul 07, 06:47:00 PM 2005, Blogger yaak said...

1) Re: the Gulf War, I know - I was there. And you're right that the destruction is primarily for the Goyim. However, I can't help but think that there may be Rahmana Litzlan some Jewish casualties. The benefit given to eating Seudat Shelishit on Shabbat is being saved from Gog Umagog. This certainly doesn't apply to Goyim. I hope and pray that it's not true. Maybe it's a distinction of Be'itah (R"L Jewish casualties) and Ahishena (no Jewish casualties). I don't know.

2) Thanks for your translation. I saw it on gog1.com, but couldn't post on it due to time constraints. I posted a new post on your translation.

 
At Thu Jul 07, 07:04:00 PM 2005, Blogger yaak said...

>Anonymous said...
Can anyone enlighten me as to
how was WW1 against the Jews?

someone asked that exact question in ledavid.com.

The answer given is similar to what it says in part 4 here.

 
At Thu Jul 07, 07:16:00 PM 2005, Blogger yaak said...

"...the Americans will capture Yerushalayim."

I'd like to know the source upon which he bases that statement.

On the other hand, Zohar I, Va'era 32a says, (in part) "...the Holy Land will not fall to the hands of Edom."


Apparently, Zohar Balak 132 says that it will. Is it a Setirah in the Zohar? I didn't look at the sources, but this is what I saw on other sites.

 
At Fri Jul 08, 09:58:00 AM 2005, Blogger yaak said...

I looked up both sources.

Zohar Va'era page 32a does say that Israel will not fall to the hands of Edom.

Zohar Hadash Balak #131 (on the verse Darach Kochav MiYa'akov) says that Edom will capture Israel for 12 months.

It does seem like a contradiction, but maybe referring to 2 different times in history?

 
At Fri Jul 08, 10:41:00 AM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice resolution. Yishar Koach.

 
At Wed Dec 13, 12:34:00 PM 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

choshever yidden..milchemes gog umagog will only be fought by hashem yisbarach through the mashiach...rabbonim ,stop it,enough of this bull crap..what is taking place is only wars because of hatred..this is not the battle of mashiach...its about time for our rabbonim to start education the students and stop bullshitting the students..wnough is enough

 

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