Friday, June 08, 2007

On Shas's Decision

Comment #8 here, which I did not write, but I agree with:

כל הקופצים בראש, ההחלטה היא דעת תורה
מאת : ש"סניק
כל אלו הקופצים בראש, אתם יודעים על מי נאמר שקופץ בראש. זכרו שההחלטה היא דעת תורה וכך צריכים לנהוג, לא תסור ימין ושמאל.
לא תמיד אנו רואים מה שמרן רואה, וכבר היו דברים מעולם. באופן אישי הייתי שמח אם היה ניתן הוראה להצביע לריבלין, אבל משכבר ניתנה ההחלטה לפרס, כך צריך לנהוג



Avraham Avinu was ordered to do something that went against his conscience, but he did not question, and did as he was told.

The Torah says "את ה' אלקיך תירא" and the Rabbi Akiva was Doresh:

את - לרבות תלמידי חכמים

We are not privy to the minds of our sages, and we cannot say we know better than them, because we don't.

Any comment that disrespects any rabbi will be deleted

47 Comments:

At Fri Jun 08, 11:09:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yaak, I was waiting for you. You failed the test. Think it over, for your soul's sake. Shabbat Shalom.

 
At Fri Jun 08, 11:40:00 AM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

Avraham Avinu passed the test.

I've failed many tests before. This one, I believe I passed.

 
At Fri Jun 08, 02:01:00 PM 2007, Blogger nava said...

I was discussing with my husband Rav Ovadia Shlita's choosing Peres. He strongly suggested not to talk about it, negative or positive and just hope for the best...
good advise...

Is it possible for the MK's not to vote for anyone???

 
At Fri Jun 08, 02:39:00 PM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

Nava, your husband is probably right.

סיג לחכמה שתיקה

I probably should have remained silent on the matter, but on the other hand, many bloggers, including ones on my sidebar that I agree with on most matters have denounced it, some vehemently.

While I understand their position, I felt I needed to say mine, whether it was right or wrong for me to do so. It is definitely a different position than most of the English-speaking jblogosphere (who attack first and ask questions later), and one that I felt needed to be put on the table.

I am also aware of your position in general about Shas.

Regarding your question, I don't know if abstaining is possible by rule, nor do I know if it's possible from the perspective of being loyal to Rav Ovadia Shlit"a.

 
At Sat Jun 09, 09:34:00 PM 2007, Blogger Akiva said...

We are not robots. One does not lead the klal exclusively by dictate. Influencing, explaining, pointing out the right direction is usually the path. Then, when one must dictate, it may not always be understood but it will have a context of trust and foundational philosophy to fall back upon.

I will note that mere moments after the Rav's decision was announced, the government announced intention to give away the Golan.

The Rav's position tests many people's emunah in the gedolim. I pray he has taken such into consideration, and is not exclusively focused on his community. His decisions are affecting the klal, in a big way.

 
At Sat Jun 09, 10:32:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Sfaradi said...

Shimon Peres has made something very outstanding that changed his Mazal in Shamayim, and his status towards Judaism. This is the true cause behind Maran's decision to vote Peres. Many are just unaware, or don't want to be aware of it.

As you know, and some may remember, Peres has been 'cursed' by one of the major Rabbinical figures (a few decades ago), the Gerrer Rebbe (at that time), not to be able to win any election campaign. Some joked that he can't even win a Vaad-Bayit elections.

See more about this matter here: http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2005/11/the_price_of_a_.html

If Peres wins (for the first time in his life) you will understand that what I am saying is true, since the 'curse' has stopped working, and you wiil understand that Peres has changed his Mazal by doing a huge Mitzva, and that was the real reason behind Maran's decision:

A few months ago, the authorities in Ukraine decided to build a huge hotel near Rabbi Nahman of Breslev's Tziun in Uman, where tens of thousands of massacred Jews have been buried together before Rabbi Nahman's time. The decision was made, and the work begun on the site, without any respect for the dead souls buried under the site. Immediately the Hareidi community in Israel was contacted, and Hareidi MKs asked officialy to stop the work, because it contradicts the Jewish faith. The job was suspended, but only for a short time, and then they began working again. Mind you, that Rabbi Nahman of Breslev asked to be buried in Uman only because of the souls that were buried there, according to his own words, because he needed to make Tikunim for all of them. The Breslev community in Israel and abroad was enraged, but almost helpless, since the Ukrainians (who are well known antisemitics) didn't care at all.

At this stage Hareidi MK Meir Porush asked Shimon Peres to intervene, and Peres agreed, and made substantial efforts during a few days to convince the authorities in the Ukraine to stop their project. Finally his efforts were successful, and the authorities there suspended the whole project forever. Needless to say that the Breslev community, and every G-d fearing Jew, were very happy to say the least.

See more about this matter here: http://www.nfc.co.il/Archive/001-D-126067-00.html?tag=05-51-02

This one big Mitzva, that was involved with the great Brelever Rebbe, Rabbi Nahman of Breslev, changed Peres' Mazal in Shamayim, and I think that the curse won't work anymore, and that will allow everyone to see how Maran was right in this matter.

Anyway, with or without that fact, Yaak is totally right, and this is Daat Torah, and I'm sick and tired to hear and read people that know nothing on Judaism (though THEY think they know everything) making remarks on everyone that they don't like, without understanding the basics of Judaism, not to mention Lashon Hara. I should've elaborated more, but my experience says that this will be in vain.

Just one final remark for the readers abroad: In Israel the President can't do anything. It's just a ceremonial role. The president has no authority to do any action at all. The biggest thing he does is to sign pardons for prisoners (which he MUST sign, without discretion). So people are actually making a fuss from nothing (as they are used to).

On another front, yesterday Maran signaled that Israel is close to a confronation with Iran and Syria, and asked everybody to join Selihot saying on Thursday 18:00 Israel time.

See more about this matter here: http://maran1.com/shiur.php?sn=70924YslihotcallW

And last but not least, great Yeshar Koach for you Yaak, for being so truthful and faithful for true Judaism. We need more like you to bring Mashiah fast :)

Shavua Tov

 
At Sun Jun 10, 01:33:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yaak, you say "Avraham Avinu was ordered to do something that went against his conscience, but he did not question, and did as he was told."

Am I correct in assuming you're referring to the Akeidah?

If so, would I be too nitpicky to point out that he wasn't ordered to do it, but rather was requested to [that's how I'm given to understand the phrasing "Kach-na et bincha...."

And I find it hard to equate a direct communication from HaShem with a directive from a flesh-and-blood, finite, fallible human being.

-- MAOZ

 
At Sun Jun 10, 02:20:00 PM 2007, Anonymous לירז צרפתי said...

אני אישית לא חושב שמשרת נשיא המדינה היא משרה משפיעה.
אומנם המשרה מייצגת אותנו וזה חשוב אך אין לנשיא הרבה כוח.
אני חושב שצריך להתרכז במה שהולך בירושלים עם המצעד שרוצים לקיים למרות שכבר היה אחד בתל-אביב.
אנחנו בתור אנשים יכולים להביע את דעתנו בהפגנה על זה שחוץ מזה שהדבר טמא ומטמא את ירושליים גם זה לא הגיוני שיהיו המוני מצעדי גאווה שבוע אחר שבוע כל פעם במקום שונה.
כי בינתיים,אין לנו כוח בחירה לנשיאות.

 
At Sun Jun 10, 02:31:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sfaradi, I am pretty sure you are not privy to any information about shamayim. I do not know anybody who has really followed "maran" and is surprised about his choice for Shimon Peres. It has nothing to do with a recent event in Ukraine.

It is my guess that Shamayim is about to mete out great punishment to mr Peres, and to the reshaim around him. "Maran" should have separated from him as from Korach.

Your suggestion (I am sick and tired) that we know nothing about Judaism is a statement of gross pride. Blind following of leaders is not a Jewish thing. If your Rav says something that makes no sense to you, it is forbidden for you to accept. Even a psak from Sanhedrin does not have the status that you and Yaak give to "maran", who has a long and quite unbroken record of serious mistakes in the political field. Reflect and flee from evil.

 
At Sun Jun 10, 03:12:00 PM 2007, Blogger Devorah said...

Very interesting to read Sfardi's comment. Whether or not it is the truth, only time will tell.
We live in interesting times.....

 
At Sun Jun 10, 05:33:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think his life was threaten by Peres or blacked mail.

 
At Sun Jun 10, 08:32:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Sfaradi said...

Most of the time I do not reply hatred posts, such as those of the anti-Maran "anonymous" (from msgs 1&9 who I seem to know who he is pretty well, many characteristics are very familiar...) . But just so no one will fall to his traps:

He said: "Blind following of leaders is not a Jewish thing", based on no substance at all. True Judaism, on the other hand, is different than the false non-substantiated Judaism of Mr. Anonymous.

Rashi brings what was brought in the original post of Yaak. See Dvarim 17,11, the verse says: "על פי התורה אשר יורוך ועל המשפט אשר יאמרו לך תעשה לא תסור מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל" (you shall do as the instructions that they give you, and the sentence that they tell you. You will not stray from what they tell you right or left). Rashi says there: "right or left: Even if [the leader] tells you that right is left, and left is right [you should obey], not to mention when he tells you that right is right and left is left".

Rashi is not saying things by himself. He is based on ספרי, the Midrash that was written according to the tradition by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yohai. If you read what he says in the same place, you'll be amazed to see how this totally fits the current situation:

"ימין ושמאל. אפילו מראים בעיניך על שמאל שהוא ימין ועל ימין שהוא שמאל "
(right and left: Even if it seems to you that the left is right, and the right is left)

So, actually, Rabbi Shimon Bar Yoahi says here clearly, that even if by your understanding it seems that they are wrong, this is your understanding only, and you still have to obey.

But, why should we need Rabbi Shimon, when we have Mr. Anonymous and his followers, who invent for us a new Torah, and a new form of Judaism. May Hashem help us to keep away from such lies.

The Sitra Ahra is blindening people's eyes, not to see where the truth is. This is nothing new. This week's Parasha speaks about Korah and Dathan and Aviram instigating the people against Moshe Rabenu. According to Hazal in the Midrash and the Gemmara, the people were so mad by their hate to Moshe Rabenu, that they even thought that their wives betray them with him!!! The Torah itself shows us how they acted, when Moshe Rabenu came to them, they said: "you promised us to go to Eretz Yisrael, but this turned to be a lie, so you're a liar" - and this made sense to many people in that era (as we all know, Moshe Rabenu's promise was based on Hashem's word, but the people spoiled it because they wept when the spies returned from Israel, last Parasha). If Mr. Anonyomous and his friends were at that generation, we can assume that they would find themselves very fast underground. But in this generation, when the Sitra Ahra is so powerful, their lies can actually decieve other people.

Every true Tzadik has many מחלוקות and בזיונות around him. We saw this throughout the history. When I read about Rabbi Nahman of Breslev, and how people humiliated him, and what they said and thought about him, I am not surprised at all. I believe that if he was living in this generation, it would've become worse, with all the internet and the mass media.

BTW: I'm sure no one understood by my previous remark that I know anything about what's going in Shamayim. I don't know even what's going in earth... This is only an assumption that was carefuly made according to what we learn from our Rabbis throughout the generations, that a any Mitzva that a Jew makes can turn the table upside down, not to mention such a huge Mitzva. When taking into consideration that this was also closely connected with Rabbi Nahman of Breslev, I can only assume that the power of this Mitzva is bigger. I said in previous remark, that this doesn't make a difference, whether it proves to be right or wrong, since we should always follow our rabbis. Those who follow themselves, and invent new Torah every day, are not to be taken into consideration.

[I am not opening a discussion here, since as I said previously my experience says that this will be in vain]

 
At Sun Jun 10, 10:02:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is you who writes with hatred in you heart, Sfaradi. The Midrash thtat Rashi cites is only one view, and Rashi is not paskening Halacha. The Talmud Yersualmi (Horayot) explicitly negates this view:

"One could think that if they said to you about right that it is left and about left that it is right, listen to them. Therefore the Torah says to go right and left: that they will tell you about right that it is right and about left that it is left."

May your learning be blessed.

 
At Sun Jun 10, 11:20:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Because Yaak also referred to this in his post, and so that there not be unnecessary confusion, please read the following closely.

The verse Dvarim 17,11 relates to Sanhedrin in Yerushalayim. Sifri comments what is often cited, that we should listen also if they make a mistake. This is the subject of the Mishna Horayot. The Yerushalmi there, just cited, explicitly negates what the Sifri says.

The Ramban explain in his commentary to the first Shoresh in the Sefer HaMitzvot of the Rambam how both are right. He explains that the task of Sanhedrin is to find the true position of Torah in new issues that come up.

Therefore, the nation should listen to Beit Din in everything they will say, so that there be one Torah in Israel, which we receive through Sanhedrin.

However, and this is the subject matter of the Mishna in Horayot, the task of Beit Din is to judge according to the truth.

Therefore, says the Ramban, it is clear that there is one condition to our obedience which "will be noticed by anyone who studies the fine points of the first Mishna of Horayot". Then he explains at length how the system really is.

We should not accept something that is wrong in our eyes. In such a case, assuming one is learned enough, one should go to Sanhedrin, to tell them one's opinion and to have Sanhedrin clarify its opinion. Until one does so, it is forbidden to follow the psak of Sanhedrin that seems wrong. After Sanhedrin clarifies its psak and explicitly decides that the reasonings of the individual are not correct, the latter becomes obligated and should act according to the psak of Sanhedrin.

But, this is the crucial point, it it could also be that in the process Sanhedrin became convinced that it made a mistake.

In the case of the issue of the post, there is not a psak of Sanhedrin, but an opinion, not even halachic, of one individual rabbi, and no explanation was given for this opinion.

Who suggests that the left-right principle applies here makes a very serious mistake.

May the reader be blessed.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 12:38:00 AM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

Akiva,
I'm sure Rav Ovadia Shlit"a took everything into consideration when making his decision, as he always does (read his halachic works, and you'll see what I refer to).

Sfaradi,
Thank you for your comment. It is refreshing to hear someone who agrees with me on this. The idea that his Mazal changed is an interesting one too.

Maoz,
Your question is why I mentioned in the post the Pasuk of את ה' אלקיך תירא to show that just as R' Akiva equated the two, we can possibly do the same here.

לירז,
Your point that the president of Israel has little power is a good one.

Regarding whether the Yerushalmi negates the Sifri's point of Yamin Usmol, I once looked up that Yerushalmi, and noticed that although, Pashtut, you're right, nevertheless, the Hida learns that Yerushalmi in a way that it doesn't contradict the Sifri. I unfortunately don't have a Yerushalmi with the Hida in front of me right now to verify this.

However, besides that, this is not so clear-cut as saying your left is right and right is left, even if some pundits may argue so. There was obviously a very good reason for the choice he made, and we therefore will go along with it. It's the unpopular choice - that's for sure. However, I trust Rav Ovadia's Shikul Hada'at here.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 12:51:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

yaak,

I find it a bit disconcerting that you reject the Ramban's opinion based on a Chidah that you can't quote.

Furthermore the fact that you don't even accept the validity of the Ramban's opinion seems a bit much.

The pshat of the pasuk remains, this refers to the Sanhedrin.

To support Shimon Peres is to "strengthen the hands of a sinner". Does helping the kvarim of Jews in the Ukraine make up for causing the deaths of more than a thousand in Israel? We certainly don't know the reward for a mitzvah and the punishment for an aveirah, but we shouldn't assume the illogical either.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 01:01:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If Peres becomes president, the president will have more than a little power. Everybody knows that Peres' influence always yields far beyond his formal responsibilities. He is a very trickery man, always scheming behind the backs of others in order to achieve his agenda. He is more than capable to obligate the state into things way far far beyond what he technically can do. And his agenda is clear.

I would like to know what the Hida writes, but the Hida is only one authority and well known to have taken an extreme position in this sugya in a broader sense.

Who invokes the exalted minds of a sage as an argument for excepting his opininon, went beyond the perimeters of Torah. We go by argumentation. We decide by Rov in Beit Din.

You are sure about the Shikul Da'at of Rav Ovadia. Be blessed, but almost nobody is. The sufferings that Oslo brought us were a rough lesson that is with us to stay.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 01:26:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Accepting, not "excepting". I tend to make that mistake.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 08:00:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the past I would have agreed with you to a large degree. Unfortunately recent experience in the world of Rabbanim, money, power, etc, etc. leads me to believe what others already know. Rabbanim can make mistakes and have profound lapses in judgement, and history proves that time and again. No one can dispute that. They are human. Hakadoesh boruch hu created them as such. To say one should not speak in a disrespectful way to or about a Rav I agree with. To suggest somehow that they are beyond reproach flies in the face of history, and to somehow suggest that one cannot and should not vehemently and in as strongest terms within the confines of Kavod disagree with them where necessary is wrong. There were cataclysimic errors made during the Holocaust that led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Yiddin because of what HISTORY tells us proved to be bad judgement on the part of our leaders. Please don't say because of what ultimately did happen that proves they were imbued with Rucah Hakodesh and knew that this was the ratzon of Hashem and were just following Hashem's ratzon. Our leaders are human. They do make mistakes. They do have lapses in judgement. It is the common man's role to question and raise his voice in a bekavod way, particularly if there is a real large kehilla who might well disagree. In this case it could be that the majority of frumma yidden in Eretz Yisroel disgaree with this decision.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 08:50:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Rabbanim organization, 'The Rabbinical Congress for Peace', (Pikuach Nefesh) which includes HaRav Yaakov Yosef (son of HaRav Ovadia Yosef Shlita), are extremely against Shas' decision and came out with a sharp attack against the possibility that Peres will be the elected the 9th President of Erez Israel.

http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2007/06/rav-yosef-shlita-vs-rav-yosef-shlita.html

 
At Mon Jun 11, 10:08:00 AM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

As I stated in the post, at first I was not terribly happy with the decision, and if the decision would have gone the other way, it would have been more settling to my feeble mind, but I now accept it as one that was made with Shikul Hada'at by the foremost halachic authority alive today.

I will quote you the Hida when I find it. Sheesh! A little Savlanut is in order.

Of course, rabbanim can make mistakes. I'm not saying that they don't. Nor am I saying that everyone must agree with him. What I am saying is that as a follower of his, that although my conscience tells me otherwise, I will accept his psak Be'ahava.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 10:23:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's a hot topic, not only on your blog... All over the world. Most Jews don't want Peres and understandigly, disagree with Maran Ovadia Yosef's choice.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 06:56:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The pask of Rav Ovadiah is wrong and endangers the public. An evil person, a hater of the faithful, is about to enter public office for six years, if he will live. Yaak, I suggest you study Rambam, Hilchot Shegagot 13:5. Who knowlingly violates an issur is always responsible. You cannot hide behind a psak that you cannot explain.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 08:35:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

אחד מחברי סיעת ש"ס לא יצביע לפרס בהצבעה לנשיאות.
הח"כ בעל דיעות ימניות, ואינו סבור שפרס ראוי לשמש כנשיא, ולכן לא יצביע לו

 
At Mon Jun 11, 11:50:00 PM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

Is it really an Issur to have this person enter public office for 6 years? Who says? It seems wrong, yes, but your Shikul Hada'at and my Shikul Hada'at do not compare to the Shikul Hada'at of Rav Ovadia Shlit"a. Could he be wrong? Yes. Is it more likely that you and I are wrong? Yes.

 
At Mon Jun 11, 11:53:00 PM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous 8:35 PM:
I saw reports both ways that a) there may be some rogue MKs who vote for Rivlin and b) all MKs will accept the Psak of the Council. I don't know what to believe anymore. We'll have to wait and see.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 12:06:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In prior generations, Rabbis wouldn't do things certain ways lest people draw conclusions (even though they could just as well explain their actions) contrary to halachah. This is all over the Gemara.

We are now in a generation that we are told to accept what seems questionable without explanation. This is not our tradition.

Shimon Peres has had a direct hand in Jewish deaths. Supporting him makes it seem that what he did was ok, which it was not. No explanation has been given.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 12:07:00 AM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

I found the "Hida" that I referred to earlier. It looks like it's from the Hid"a, but please correct me if I'm mistaken.
It's a quote from the ככר לאדן on the ירושלמי הוריות פ"א ה"א, where it mentions not following the rabbis if they tell you that right is left and vice-versa. This is what the ככר לאדן writes:

עד שיאמרו לך על ימין וכו'. וצ"ע דבפסוק לא תסור וכו' אמרו חז"ל אפילו יאמרו לך על ימין שהוא שמאל וכו'. וי"ל דהכא איירי שטועין בדבר המפורש בתורה שכל העולם יודעים שהם טועין והתם איירי שאינם טועין שיודעים שזה אסור או מותר ומה שעושים הוא להוראת שעה או בשער דברים שאינן מפורשים בתורה וחידשו בשכלם שהדין כך ויודעים עיקר הדבר שמן התורה אסור או מותר ואינן טועין לכך ישמע להם (א"ה חיד"א עיין בשער יוסף). ע"כ

If anyone can tell me what the א"ה stands for, I'd appreciate it.
But anyways, you see from here, that where it's not explicit in the Torah otherwise, one must listen.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 12:38:00 AM 2007, Blogger yaak said...


We are now in a generation that we are told to accept what seems questionable without explanation. This is not our tradition.


Just because a full explanation was not divulged to the press does not mean that the explanation was absent. I'm sure the explanation is clear to those who heard it. After all, the vote in the council was unanimous, and this was after a certain MK tried to convince R' Ovadia not to go in that direction.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 04:42:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yaak, please read again what I said. In prior generations, as recorded in the Gemara, Rabbis would refrain from acting in a certain way, although they could give an explanation for their actions, lest people draw the wrong conclusions. Kal vaChomer they didn't do these seemingly questionable acts and only explain it to those that were close to them.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 05:34:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>Shimon Peres has had a direct hand in Jewish deaths. Supporting him makes it seem that what he did was ok, which it was not.<

And Rav Yosef should be especially sensitive to this, because of his support for Peres at the time.

And if he would feel compelled to support him now, he should also feel compelled to explain himself in the clearest terms in order to avoid the impression that he is acting along the same line as before, saying in fact that he still feels that his support for Peres back then was ok. Which it was not.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 05:46:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The logic is impeccable. If the support of the Rav for Peres' peace agreements was ok, Peres was ok. If Peres was ok, he is not to blame for the sad consequences of "the peace". If so, Peres is still ok, and a good candidate for the presidency.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 07:33:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A while back (1-2 years) there were modaot posted all over Jerusalem saying that Rav Yosef had done teshuvah for his support of Oslo. This was around elections time.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 07:35:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The sefer Halichos Olam reports that many years after his death, Rabbi Yonason Eibshitz, zs'l, appeared in a dream and revealed that he and Rabbi Yaakov Emden, zs'l, with whom he had been in dispute about Shabtai Tzvi, were sitting together in Gan Eden. But everyone else who became involved in their dispute was sitting in Gehenom!” (Yaaros Dvash 3)

 
At Tue Jun 12, 09:22:00 AM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

Kal vaChomer they didn't do these seemingly questionable acts and only explain it to those that were close to them

So Bechavod - you go, set up an appointment with Rav Ovadia, so he can explain to you his reasoning. I'm sure he'll be happy to explain his reasoning to anyone - not only those who are close to him.

The logic is impeccable. If the support of the Rav for Peres' peace agreements was ok, Peres was ok. If Peres was ok, he is not to blame for the sad consequences of "the peace". If so, Peres is still ok, and a good candidate for the presidency.

Not a good candidate for the presidency, but for a yet unknown reason, the best of the candidates out there.

The sefer Halichos Olam reports that many years after his death, Rabbi Yonason Eibshitz, zs'l, appeared in a dream and revealed that he and Rabbi Yaakov Emden, zs'l, with whom he had been in dispute about Shabtai Tzvi, were sitting together in Gan Eden. But everyone else who became involved in their dispute was sitting in Gehenom!”

Good point. This is true because of the others' insistance on denigrating the other group's rav. I did and would not do anything of the sort.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 10:17:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Criticism, even sharp criticism, can be L'Shem Shamayim. Read above about Sifri, Rashbi, Ramban, Chida, a shiur Torah, a fine discussion. In the case of Rav Yaakov Emden and Rav Eibshitz, it seems that the students did not understand that despite the sharpness of the dispute between their leaders, it was L'Shem Shamayim. And as it happened, some here temporarily misunderstood certain posts of others in a similarly mistaken fashion. It can happen. Ribbono Shel Olam, who knows all hearts, may He bless you all! And if Peres will become president, the absolutely wonderful news will be that he will not be Rosh HaMemshala, for six whole years!

 
At Tue Jun 12, 11:47:00 AM 2007, Blogger nava said...

HaShem always raises the proud, so their fall will be so much harder
משפיל גאים
This is a pattern that is seen thru out our Jewish history.
If peres should 'win', this will be our comfort

 
At Tue Jun 12, 12:10:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is what I tried to say before also. It is Parshat Korach this week. It is not good to be associated with the proud as they are being raised before the fall and very bad it is to be an instrument in the raising.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 12:18:00 PM 2007, Blogger yaak said...

OK guys, this is even getting more interesting and confusing. See here.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 02:24:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

not sure what you are pointing at. Can you link us?

 
At Tue Jun 12, 03:04:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Neshama said...

When it comes to politics, it makes strange alliances. Why, Pres. Bush has just said that Putin/Russia is not our enemy(Hamodia, June 6 issue). Well, Bush may not think Russia is America's enemy, but I don't think Israel could make the same statement.

When I was in Israel many years ago, as part of a group of Zionist inspired olim (Telem), we were escorted to the party headquarters of Peres who was speaking to his followers. I remember being at a position that allowed me to be able to look into his eyes. You can tell much about a person from his/her eyes.

All I can say is when poor Pollard heard about the possible nomination of that man, he was greatly distressed. His supporters issued letters to all the Knesset members about Mr. Peres' role in the sentencing of Pollard to "life" in an American prison. This was an abominable act, for which he has yet to receive his due.

There is another Israeli who has devoted his life to uncovering/exposing the awful intrigues behind the scenes of most of the political figures in Israel over the past 40 years. There is much evidence to convict most of the country's leaders of horrible crimes.

Hashem knows the truth, and in the final analysis the Emes will win out. No one gets away with anything. But at the same time, everyone is entitled to their personal opinion.

In these days before Moshiach is revealed, there is much to view with great caution. Nava has an excellent article on the History of the Erev Rav, and it is not too flattering to the country's leadership. The Leshem and the Vilna Gaon (as well as other great names) have cautioned greatly about the leadership (secular and religious) in these same days.

 
At Tue Jun 12, 09:20:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

> not sure what you are pointing at. Can you link us?

It is claimed in the article that the decision of the sages of Shas leaves room for Shas' Knesset members to vote Rivlin, and it is suggested that Rivlin has good chance to win for this reason.

"HaKarat HaTov" is cited as the reason for voting Peres. It sounds good but it points to one of the corruptions in Israeli society. One that has become so common, and so "natural" within the Israeli system, that many do not realize it is wrong. The first mandate of a member of Knesset is to be a lawmaker for the whole nation. When he votes, he should look at what is best for the Klal. Not at what is good for his own position, his own pocket, or even the pocket of his constituency. In this case, if Peres contributed to the pockets of Shas institutions, it is ok for Shas to be thankful, assuming the corresponding deals were not stinking.

If part of the deal was that they must support Peres for presidency, that stinks. If the deal was that they must support "peace", that stinks. Assumng the HaKarat HaTov is not part of a deal, it is a beautiful thing. But it cannot possibly overrule the obligation of a member of Knesset to consider first of all the general interest. Always, and certainly in the case of elections for the presidency.

This is very basic morality and it should be obvious. It is even Israeli law in the current case: This is why the ballot is secret. It is very worrying that the sages of Shas suggest differently. Torah sages should lead the nation in morality.

 
At Wed Jun 13, 06:45:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Sfaradi said...

Peres is the new president of Israel.

Gerrer Rebbe's curse has been broken, as anyone can see now with their own eyes, and see that Peres spiritual situation has been changed due to his great action in Uman that I mentioned earlier.

Maran has proven that he has the greatest spiritual sight, and did not hesitate to call to vote for Peres while the curse on Peres was never broken before, and he ALWAYS lost ANY elections.

Many will need to eat their hats now, the question is whether they have ones...

Maran is a true Gedol Hador, as we can see once again his true big spiritual sight. Thank Hashem that our generation has been blessed with such a Tzadik.

"תאלמנה שפתי שקר הדוברות על צדיק עתק בגאוה ובוז" (Tehilim 31:19)

 
At Wed Jun 13, 07:31:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do not think anybody here said that Peres will not be president. I think many wrote because of the great fear of what will be. Be careful, pride comes before the fall.

 
At Wed Jun 13, 11:05:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sfardi, you speak with an arrogant interpretation of events.

None of your interpretations have been proven to be true.

Rav Yosef's call for his people to vote for him is what caused him to win. It was not nevuah, nor foresight, but political power.

You do not know of the situation in the Heavens, and no matter how clear the link might seem to you, you still do not see it.

No one here predicted the outcome of the elections, just said that this outcome should not come upon us.

 
At Thu Jun 14, 04:07:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I re-installed my hotmail account. It got deleted, as you suggested. Can you send me a mail?

M. Refael

 
At Thu Jun 14, 07:56:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sent.

 

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