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Tuesday, July 23, 2013

Tell a Yeshiva Boy: "Thank You For Your Service" and Other Suggestions

Today was a sad day in Israel when the Knesset passed its first reading of the "Equality of Burden" law.  Sadly, the law will only promote inequality, as those Haredim who were not fit for full-time Torah study and were considering joining the army will now be dissuaded from doing so since they're being forced into it.  So sad.  Furthermore, this law is not promoting equaling the burden of Torah study to all.  This makes things very unequal.

Some Haredi MKs handcuffed themselves to microphones, others tore Keri'a on the Knesset floor, while almost all of them said special Selihot in the halls.  And their frustration is warranted. 

How, as religious Jews, can we help persuade a secular majority and show them the importance of Torah study being on, at the very least, the same level as army service in their eyes?  The truth is, it's difficult.  There is definitely no magic bullet.  Before anything, however, we have to believe ourselves that Yeshiva boys provide a great service to Kelal Yisrael.  Unfortunately, too many religious people don't believe it and ask מאי אהני לן רבנן.  If the religious don't believe it, it's hard to convince the secular.  On that note, here are my small suggestions to help get the ball rolling:

1) Tell every Yeshiva boy you meet, "Thank you for your service".  You do it for those in the military.  Why not those in Yeshiva?  Do you not believe that they should be thanked for the service that they provide?  Of course they should be thanked!  Their service is immeasurable and goes way beyond the service the army provides.  Not only do they help protect Kelal Yisrael, but they ensure the continuation of Kelal Yisrael by learning the Torah that we all should be learning.  Of course, say it to those in the army, but all the more so, say it to Yeshiva boys.

2) The religious media of all streams should do profile pieces on the best boy in each Yeshiva and let us know: a) what he's learning each week, b) how many years he's been in the Yeshiva, c) what Haburot he gave on what subject, etc. so that the world gets to know them.  Otherwise, to the unaffiliated, they're just a bunch of moochers who accomplish nothing.  The secular world knows the big rabbis - have them know the boys themselves and what they accomplished.  Even more importantly, have the religious world know the boys themselves and what they accomplished.

3) Get the word out to secular and skeptical religious Jews that just as those who choose the army are putting their lives on the line for the whole nation of Israel, so too, Yeshiva boys are putting their lives on the line for the whole nation of Israel.  It's not the same, you say?  You're right, but not in the way you're thinking.  Sitting and learning all day is no easy task, and at the end of the day, they have no Gashmiyut to show for it.  Those in the army eventually get out, and many have job opportunities galore, while many of their Yeshiva counterparts barely get by.  So please don't tell me that they don't put their lives on the line.  עני חשוב כמת.

Lapid and company may have won the battle against Torah, but we will win the war.  Let's start the new phase of this war right now.

32 Comments:

At Tue Jul 23, 06:35:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

First, we know Israel's leadership is mainly made up of the Erev Rav. The whole push for this phony share the burden is only to water down Torah and Judaism, in general, in EY. The IDF themselves say they do not need more soldiers. In fact, they want to decrease the numbers. The YeshAtid party is obsessed with the conscription because this party was created solely to dismantle the Jewishness of Israel. By conscripting chareidim, they know very well, there will always be a sizeable percentage who will come out much less frum or completely secular. The gedolim know very well about this and that's why they are so adamantly against this disgrace. The Erev Rav feel once they've managed to weaken the chareidim, they will start on the other religious Jews; nationalists, traditionalists, etc. As chazal tell us, they (ErevRav) will be the worst of the amaleikim. We must always remember, and as Yaak writes here, to thank the Torah learners because they, together with the young Jewish soldiers, protect the people and Land of Israel. Sad state of affairs, that so many of the citizens are so lacking of any Jewish education, that instead they follow these G-Dless leaders and besmirch Torah leaders and Torah learners. These are signs (chevlei Moshiach) leading to our Geulah Shleimah! May H' hasten it with rachamim.

 
At Tue Jul 23, 08:12:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I seem to misunderstand your post.
1. "Sadly, the law will only promote inequality, as those Haredim who were not fit for full-time Torah study and were considering joining the army will now be dissuaded from doing so since they're being forced into it."
Who says that's true? That's an assumption on your part to forward your own point.
2. "And their frustration is warranted."
As is any politician who doesn't get their way. Why is theirs warranted? because you perceive them as correct? Why is that different that anyone else not getting their way.
3. "How, as religious Jews, can we help persuade a secular majority and show them the importance of Torah study being on, at the very least, the same level as army service in their eyes?"
Unless they are learning with that specific purpose (to protect the country, and other Jews), their learning isn't. How do you know what their learning is worth vs. an actual physical action? This is an incorrect assumption. I have no problem if you state it as your point of view, but how Hashem views the actual soldiers vs the learners is different than how Hashem veiws politicians vs. soldiers or learners. No one knows how Hashem thinks, or how he values our actions weather it be serving or learning.
4. "we have to believe ourselves that Yeshiva boys provide a great service to Kelal Yisrael."
As do we believe anyone's learning is worthwhile. Why should that trump serving in the army?
5. "Tell every Yeshiva boy you meet, "Thank you for your service". You do it for those in the military."
Who are you/we to tell them their motivations for learning? And the Chareidim in general, while admitting the army is neccassary, hate it and see it as a negative thing. Why not ask the Chareidim to dedicate learning specifically to the army? Unless an attack is imminent, it doesn't happen from the Chareidim.
6."Yeshiva boys are putting their lives on the line for the whole nation of Israel. It's not the same, you say? You're right, but not in the way you're thinking. Sitting and learning all day is no easy task, and at the end of the day, they have no Gashmiyut to show for it."
What gashmiut does a soldier have other than mental anguish or possibility of being wounded or death? What are you you talking about?
7. "Those in the army eventually get out, and many have job opportunities galore, while many of their Yeshiva counterparts barely get by. So please don't tell me that they don't put their lives on the line." That is a choice, especially with what is now available.
You are very well entitled to your opinion, hey it's YOUR blog, but it certainly is not fact.
-LFD

 
At Tue Jul 23, 09:35:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

I seem to misunderstand your post.

Apparently so.

Who says that's true? That's an assumption on your part to forward your own point

No, I didn't make this point up. It was said by Eli Yishai here.

Why is theirs warranted? because you perceive them as correct? Why is that different that anyone else not getting their way.

Because this legislation is targeting these groups. It's worse than not just getting their way - it's a matter of the minority being trampled on by the majority.

Unless they are learning with that specific purpose (to protect the country, and other Jews), their learning isn't.

Your assumption and the rest of your statement is contradicted by a whole bunch of Ma'amarei Haza"l.

As do we believe anyone's learning is worthwhile. Why should that trump serving in the army?

This is the crux of the matter which deserves more time than just a comment, but in brief, it's because they are the Shevet Levi of the times.

Who are you/we to tell them their motivations for learning? And the Chareidim in general, while admitting the army is neccassary, hate it and see it as a negative thing. Why not ask the Chareidim to dedicate learning specifically to the army? Unless an attack is imminent, it doesn't happen from the Chareidim

I'm not sure what you are saying here. I didn't mention anyone's motivations for learning. What does it matter what the motivations are for? The fact is that תורה מגנא ומצלא.

What gashmiut does a soldier have other than mental anguish or possibility of being wounded or death? What are you you talking about?

I'm talking about when he leaves the army vs. when a Yeshiva guy leaves the Yeshiva/Kollel.

That is a choice, especially with what is now available.

Yes, as should be joining the army.

You are very well entitled to your opinion, hey it's YOUR blog, but it certainly is not fact.

I'm posing it as opinion based on facts. You are entitled to yours, and thanks for commenting.

 
At Tue Jul 23, 11:58:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally support genuine full-time Torah learners.

I also support everyone who does genuine military service (i.e. not part of the "hidden unemployment" in the army.)

However, your point that Haredim who intended to join the army anyway should not be made to feel that they are being forced into it is illogical. The army exemption should be for Torah learners, not Haredim per se. So if they are not learning Torah they should be subject to the same law as everyone else, which is "being forced into the army".

 
At Wed Jul 24, 12:06:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous 11:58,

I fully agree with you, but I'll tell you why it's not illogical:

1) First of all, Eli Yishai said this too. I'm not making this up.

2) Those who were going to join the army anyway will now be pressured by various Haredi groups NOT to join - all b/c of this legislation.

3) Also, there is a psychological aspect to doing things willingly as opposed to being coerced. Ask Yair Lapid himself about the "Yom Kippur Law" in Israel, which doesn't exist - and that is why it is kept by a large percentage of Israelis. We can use the same logic against him re: Shivyon Banetel.

 
At Wed Jul 24, 01:57:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Sari said...

"Sadly, the law will only promote inequality, as those Haredim who were not fit for full-time Torah study and were considering joining the army will now be dissuaded from doing so since they're being forced into it."

Excuse me, but are the chareidim a bunch of 2 year olds or teenagers with ODD? They won't do something just because someone told them that they have to?

And who are you to say that they are Shevet Levi? Maybe they are like Reuven, Gad, and 1/2 Shevet Menashe who were told by Moshe, "Shall you sit here while your brethren go to war?"

Any maybe, just maybe, if you had sons in the Israeli army you would see this differently. And yes, I very much do support Torah learning in the State of Israel.

 
At Wed Jul 24, 04:12:00 AM 2013, Blogger Neshama said...

The following was written to "A Yeshiva Bochur Reacts to the Equal Service Bill":

"I implore Yeshiva Bochur to view this not as a war, but rather as an opportunity. It is an opportunity to realize that Torah scholars are of the upmost importance to the national life of the Jewish people. It is an opportunity to break down the walls that separate one Jew from another and to integrate with the broader community in order to show the less religiously-observant the beauty and relevance of Jewish life.

And it is an opportunity fulfill the words of the Midrash Tanchuma Mishpatim 2, “He who is proper and fears sin, should involve himself in the needs of Israel… He should share their burden and suffer with them in times of trouble. He who acts in this manner sustains the world…“

Because if this opportunity is not seized, then the outcome could be catastrophic. The Midrash continues, “On the other hand ,he who refrains from sharing their burden and repairing their breaches acting as if he were Terumah (tithe) separated from the dough, destroys the world, as it is written “But an Ish Terumot (a man set aside) destroys it”(Proverbs 29:4). (Resheit Chachma Perek Hadinin p.257a)

It is my fervent hope that the days and weeks ahead see cooperation and resolution from Jews of all religious camps, and that together we will truly deserve the praise “And who is like your nation, Israel? One nation in the Land.” (Samuel 1, 15:19)

by Rabbi Josh Gerstein

The Rabbi says it better than me.

 
At Wed Jul 24, 09:22:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Sari,

Excuse me, but are the chareidim a bunch of 2 year olds or teenagers with ODD? They won't do something just because someone told them that they have to?

See my comment at 12:06 where I explain this.

And who are you to say that they are Shevet Levi? Maybe they are like Reuven, Gad, and 1/2 Shevet Menashe who were told by Moshe, "Shall you sit here while your brethren go to war?"

It is not me, but the Rambam at the end of Shemitta VeYovel who says that anyone can be like Shevet Levi to seek the spiritual instead of the mundane. There is no comparison to Reuven, Gad, and 1/2 of Menashe when dealing with those who want to learn Torah. I realize that rabbis of Yeshivot Hesder have a different view on this. Eilu Ve'eilu. If the army works for their boys, bechavod.

Any maybe, just maybe, if you had sons in the Israeli army you would see this differently. And yes, I very much do support Torah learning in the State of Israel.

I had and have uncles and cousins in the army. I don't see it any differently.


Neshama,

This is a nice article, but it ignores the fact that boys are being taken away from Talmud Torah, which is Keneged Kulam. If necessary, this "opportunity" will be a nice consolation prize, but not a lechat'hila.

 
At Wed Jul 24, 09:33:00 AM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you so much for this post and the other wonderful work you do with this blog. Yours is the only one I read regularly, though I hardly ever comment.

 
At Wed Jul 24, 09:38:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous 9:33,

Thank you.

 
At Wed Jul 24, 03:21:00 PM 2013, Blogger Neshama said...

Yaak, I can't help feeling that this is meant to cause the haredim to do teshuva for something(s) that pulled them off the straight path. In time I think it will become known. A hint of this is the way the Political members tore kria and were drawn to recite slichos before the vote. I realize why they think they did it, but the other way to see it is for 'repentance'. Personally I think boys should learn, in some it creates a beautiful neshoma. But I also believe in integrating them into society, in order for society to improve. Plus in the early days, I believe Rabbi Kook was unfairly treated. I believe he could have encouraged and influenced many to come closer to observance, but the Rabbis of the time behaved like many are behaving nowadays. Many believe that they are the ONLY Jews on earth. Not fair! Not good! HaShem thinks otherwise in order to bring the Geula. Therefore we all are doing teshuva on our own personal level. BTW we're waiting for you on the next nbn flight :-)). Wishing you and yours all the best.

 
At Wed Jul 24, 03:34:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Neshama,

You're right in the general idea that everything bad that happens should prompt Teshuva, but unless you're Haredi, you shouldn't be the one to say it. It's very easy to say that the other group should do Teshuva. It's much harder for people to say one's own group should do Teshuva.

You're also right about Rav Kook - he was treated very poorly. But Rav Kook also agreed that Torah learners should be learning. Rav Kook would most definitely side with the Haredim of today - not with the leaders of BY, who have joined the Resha'im across the aisle.

 
At Thu Jul 25, 12:37:00 AM 2013, Blogger Neshama said...

We are considered a haredi family, but live in a mixed relig area. I like diversity and believe in being an example of kindness. I am softer than my husband, but his shul thinks of him as a tz..... I believe in being apolitical, don't like 'labels', and call an apple an apple when I see it, whether as a seed or ripe. My goal in life has been ... emes.

 
At Thu Jul 25, 08:52:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your thought on this?
http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=1731&ThisGroup_ID=238&Type=Article&SID=2
-LFD80 muelson

 
At Thu Jul 25, 10:02:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

I fully support Rabbi Horowitz in his efforts.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 01:47:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Boruch H' for the new law.

there is no reason in the world why chareidim should be exempt from something the rest of Israeli society must do.

wanna change the way the secular view the Yeshiva boy? Have the Yeshiva boy say thank you to the soldiers and the taxpayers - that are paying for them to have the ability to learn!

 
At Tue Jul 30, 02:02:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Boruch H' for the new law.

Unless you are invoking the gemara that says to thank Hashem for the bad just as you thank Him for the good, you are sorely mistaken.

there is no reason in the world why chareidim should be exempt from something the rest of Israeli society must do.

Haredim - you're right. Torah learners - you're wrong, as I briefly explained above.

wanna change the way the secular view the Yeshiva boy? Have the Yeshiva boy say thank you to the soldiers and the taxpayers - that are paying for them to have the ability to learn!

אין הכי נמי. But the thanks must be a 2-way street. Everyone else should thank those learning so that there is merit up above for there to be an army and money down below.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 03:00:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No - you are also wrong my friend. and Im not sure I believe you... do you consider anyone born chareidi as a defacto 'Torah learner?'

Even so, ALL Torah learners should be exempt? Sorry. Why cant they do both army and yeshiva? and if not army, then some form of National Service?

to me (I could be classified as chareidi) it seems quite generous under the new law to allow 1800 geniuses a full exemption. not to mention that under the new law, anyone can go and work - without worrying that the army issue will prevent them from getting a job.
Now chareidi young men can go out and earn a living!

truly a bracha.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 03:05:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Everyone else should thank those learning so that there is merit up above for there to be an army and money down below."

Umm... the yeshivaleit are already being 'thanked' in the form of kollel subsidies, child allowances and countless other zchuyot - ALL from the public coffers courtesy of the 'evil, amaleiki' Zionist regime. and now for the first time ever, thanks to Lapid, Torah learning is considered national service according to the law.

so my point stands. if you want that respect from yeshivaleit. tell THEM to say thank you.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 03:14:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

No - you are also wrong my friend. and Im not sure I believe you... do you consider anyone born chareidi as a defacto 'Torah learner?'

What's not to believe. No, I don't consider anyone Haredi as a defacto Torah learner. Only if they have the Kochot and desire to do so. Then, they should be a Torah learner.

Even so, ALL Torah learners should be exempt? Sorry. Why cant they do both army and yeshiva? and if not army, then some form of National Service?

Sigh... Do I have to spell this out again? Torah learners are considered the Shevet Levi of the generation, and they have chosen to be so. See the last Rambam in Hilchot Shemita Veyovel.

Umm... the yeshivaleit are already being 'thanked' in the form of kollel subsidies, child allowances and countless other zchuyot ...so my point stands. if you want that respect from yeshivaleit. tell THEM to say thank you.

Don't you get it? All that money - where does it come from? From HKB"H. With what merit does HKB"H shower the people who have money? It is only due to those who learn Torah. Ever heard of Yissachar and Zevulun. True, Yissachar must thank Zevulun, but even more so, Zevulun must thank Yissachar.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 03:38:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"No, I don't consider anyone Haredi as a defacto Torah learner. Only if they have the Kochot and desire to do so. Then, they should be a Torah learner."

ah, so that's a good start, and Im glad you feel that way. because that's not whats preached in the current chareidi environment. Where working for a living is seen as somehow 2nd class (or worse).

nevertheless, a society cant function when an entire subgroup of people claims the mantle of "torah learner" for themselves. there has to be boundaries and limits. Ben Gurion NEVER had this in mind when he "patured" 400 yungeleit anyway.

there are more people 'in learning' today than at anytime in history, so any fears of Torah chas vesholom disappearing, are nonsense.

Also, be careful about what sources you cite, as they refer to those who TEACH Torah, not just learn it...so lets not mislead please...

The Rambam that you site doesn't absolve these Torah learners from contributing to the klal in other ways. Furthermore, there are rambams and Gemoras out there that frown quite heavily on those that CHOOSE to nothing and accept payment for learning. so we can go tit for tat citing Rishonim and Chazal about the powers and responsiblities of Torah learning, but I don't think that propels the discussion forward at all.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 03:54:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Don't you get it? All that money - where does it come from? From HKB"H. With what merit does HKB"H shower the people who have money? It is only due to those who learn Torah. Ever heard of Yissachar and Zevulun. True, Yissachar must thank Zevulun, but even more so, Zevulun must thank Yissachar."

Im sorry, but "sigh..." I don't think you get it...If it is your quest (and its mine too by the way) to get more respect for yeshivaleit, you will need to do away with such simplistic erroneous and self serving ideas.

Plus, your attitude as stated is one of much gaavah and unmitigated chutzpah.

Good luck getting the rest of the population to like you.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 03:57:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

nevertheless, a society cant function when an entire subgroup of people claims the mantle of "torah learner" for themselves. there has to be boundaries and limits. Ben Gurion NEVER had this in mind when he "patured" 400 yungeleit anyway.

And I'm supposed to care what Ben Gurion had in mind?

My view is that for those who are truly learning, there does NOT need to be boundaries and limits. The Shefa will come from Shamayim anyways. And there you go again making this a Haredi/non-Haredi issue. If you want to help the situation, remove the fakers and batlanim from the Yeshivot and have them contribute to society in other ways.

there are more people 'in learning' today than at anytime in history, so any fears of Torah chas vesholom disappearing, are nonsense.

Who said that Torah would disappear? Of course it won't. However, this generation needs as much Torah learning as possible to counteract all the other negative things going on around us.

Also, be careful about what sources you cite, as they refer to those who TEACH Torah, not just learn it...so lets not mislead please...

You need to learn in order to teach later in life.

The Rambam that you site doesn't absolve these Torah learners from contributing to the klal in other ways. Furthermore, there are rambams and Gemoras out there that frown quite heavily on those that CHOOSE to nothing and accept payment for learning. so we can go tit for tat citing Rishonim and Chazal about the powers and responsiblities of Torah learning, but I don't think that propels the discussion forward at all.

The Rambam definitely does absolve Torah learners from army service and doing the mundane. It is the Kelal's responsibility to support the Yeshivot and those who learn just like it's the Kelal's responsibility to support the Levi.


 
At Tue Jul 30, 04:01:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

If it is your quest (and its mine too by the way) to get more respect for yeshivaleit, you will need to do away with such simplistic erroneous and self serving ideas.

Simplistic? Not at all. Is that Rambam simplistic?!

Erroneous? Is that Rambam erroneous?!

Self-serving? I work for a living. Is this self-serving?!

Plus, your attitude as stated is one of much gaavah and unmitigated chutzpah.

That's your opinion. Those who know me will beg to differ.

Good luck getting the rest of the population to like you.

How about thanking a Yeshiva boy, then? THAT will be a good start.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 04:29:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is beginning to go around in circles, and I doubt I can convince you, especially with such an emotional issue.

Society has the right to push back and demand contributions from those who are taking. Its also disingenuous to claim Torah study as a blanket exemption for all based on cherry picking Rambams and massaging them to fit your agenda etc.

Fortunately, the pendulum is swinging back thanks to these new laws. The situation as it was, was never fair to begin with. Torah learning will continue, still more than when Ben Gurion gave his haskoma to the p'tur.

Unfortunately, the prevailing attitude not to compromise on ANYTHING (army, education etc.) and to call people names for daring to disagree doesn't help our noble goal. Add to that the outrageous tactics of the chareidi chavrei Knesset, and they are just shooting themselves in the foot....

Hopefully with more chareidim 'sharing the burden' the respect for Torah will increase thereby making a huge Kiddush H'.

FYI - there are MANY chareidim who silently cheer these new changes from the sidelines. (I proudly count myself as one of them)

I wish you only the best. you seem like a mentsch.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 04:51:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Society has the right to push back and demand contributions from those who are taking.

I believe the crux of our argument is that we disagree on who the givers are and who the takers are. Once we acknowledge that both are givers and both are takers, we can then move forward.

Fortunately, the pendulum is swinging back thanks to these new laws. The situation as it was, was never fair to begin with. Torah learning will continue, still more than when Ben Gurion gave his haskoma to the p'tur.

I don't care if Ben Gurion never gave a haskama ever. The Petur was always fair and should have been continued. The rest of society didn't understand the good that they were getting. Perhaps, the Haredim are at fault for not getting their message out better.

Unfortunately, the prevailing attitude not to compromise on ANYTHING (army, education etc.) and to call people names for daring to disagree doesn't help our noble goal.

That's not true. There were compromises that were offered by the Haredim, but were rejected by Lapid and co. Re: calling people names, if they are a proven Rasha, I have no objection. Otherwise, it is wrong.

Add to that the outrageous tactics of the chareidi chavrei Knesset, and they are just shooting themselves in the foot....

Perhaps, you missed the blurb in which Rav Shteinman was consoled by the UTJ MKs's actions and said, "At least there was a public protest" or something along those lines.

Hopefully with more chareidim 'sharing the burden' the respect for Torah will increase thereby making a huge Kiddush H'.

I don't know what the future holds, but I hope you're right. It would be a nice consolation prize, but it should never have come to this.

FYI - there are MANY chareidim who silently cheer these new changes from the sidelines. (I proudly count myself as one of them)

Unfortunately, you and the "MANY" you cite are siding with Torah-haters and against the Gedolim of our generation, who have said otherwise. There are good changes that could be made, and actually were being made before Lapid and co. came to ruin everything. As I said in the post, it will now make it LESS likely for non-learning Haredim to join the army. חבל.

I wish you only the best. you seem like a mentsch.

Likewise.

 
At Tue Jul 30, 05:11:00 PM 2013, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was hoping to leave this on a positive note, but your very last sentence compels me to respond.

Sorry, there is ZERO evidence that Lapid etc. are "torah haters". this false accusation has been propagated by a particularly vicious chareidi press and if one actually listens to Lapid, Bennet etc, one will see a recognition of limud hatorah as a great thing.
I see real hatred and sinas chinam coming out of the chareidi camp (calling people amalek, goyim, reshoim etc.)

Come on - It is precisely this attitude that alienates so many of us. this demonization that your side continues to do.

once again, if it is your goal to see Torah learners respected more, you must first REFRAIN from maligning everyone who doesn't see things your way, then learn to compromise. FYI - the 'compromises' you speak of offered by the chareidi parties were really delaying tactics and not substantive, and should have been rejected. As well, the progress you speak of in these areas was solely on chareidi terms. the general population that votes in a democracy does not need to accept the snails pace and the less than satisfactory results these changes were producing.

Furthermore, here we come to the issue of Gedolim, which I am glad you brought up because I believe that is really the crux of your argument.

Claims made in the name of or about Gedolim are no longer reliable anymore, as most of these stories are exactly that - stories.
Let R' Shteinman call me and tell me what he said, and I will believe what he says from his own mouth. not from the goons and kannoim that surround him, misquote him etc.

Besides, who says gedolim are 'right' about everything? I need to believe that as some sort of 'ikrei emunah' now?
Pushing the "because I said the Gedolim said so" as a reason the rest of the world should agree with you will NEVER work. It actually makes it worse, and it ultimately denigrates the gedolim.

Its a new day, and history will judge those who adapted and thrived vs. those who lashed out like a 17 year old who just had the car keys taken away from him...

 
At Tue Jul 30, 05:22:00 PM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

I have plenty to say about your last comment, but I will let you have the final word because 1) I'm tired of this argument and 2) there is nothing to be gained from arguing it except more Mahloket.

Have a good day and Kol Tuv.

 
At Wed Jul 31, 12:36:00 AM 2013, Blogger Chana said...

"BTW we're waiting for you on the next nbn flight..."

Wait, you mean you *don't* live here? Which means you have no actual personal skin in the game, can't vote here, and therefore, really have no right to complain to those of us who do.

You have uncles and cousins who have served in the IDF, and therefore you understand the feelings of those who serve themselves or who have sons who do?

Uh, no. Absolutely, unequivocally no. You no playa da game, Yaak, you no make'a da rules.

My son served in an elite combat unit, and my husband spent 20 years doing miluim, during which we lost money and sleep, and spent untold hours of aggravation, anguish, and inconvenience. But you CARE.

 
At Wed Jul 31, 12:49:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Chana,

Uh, yes. Absolutely, unequivically yes.

As a member of the Jewish people, I have as much of a say in it as anyone. Israel belongs to the entire Jewish people. I grieve along with you. I celebrate along with you. Furthermore, I have parents, grandparents, uncles, and cousins living in Israel. And perhaps, one day, if Hashem allows me to, I will join you.

I thank your husband and your son for their service in the army and feel for your anguish.

But really, what "rules" am I making here? I'm giving suggestions. Why is everyone so bothered by them?

 
At Wed Jul 31, 04:41:00 AM 2013, Blogger Chana said...

"And perhaps, one day, if Hashem allows me to..."

Baloney. If you have the right to play armchair quarterback, or long-distance Yirmiyahu, we have the right to continue not taking you seriously.
We have continued to subsidize an entire class of supposedly equal citizens with welfare, discounts, and the precious blood of our sons. Now that my countrymen declare, after all these years, that this generosity can no longer remain unlimited in time or number of beneficiaries, you cry foul and claim you should have an equal voice in the decision.
Yaakov, you can take a plane over to the playing field any time you darn well decide to, and then you can vote. But you continue to vote with your feet.
And when I see yeshiva bachurs who spend as many hours awake in study, and train an nth as hard as my son did in the Sayeret, I'll thank them. And if I ever see any of them "killing themselves in ohel haTorah" in the way that my son's companions--and friends--were killed in combat, when I see that their losses are as serious as the gunshot wounds and burns and fractured or lost limbs as his friends suffered, then maybe I will take them more seriously than a diligent jobnik in a rear-line position.

 
At Wed Jul 31, 09:33:00 AM 2013, Blogger yaak said...

Baloney. If you have the right to play armchair quarterback, or long-distance Yirmiyahu, we have the right to continue not taking you seriously.

You always had that right - even if I lived in E"Y. The people you should take seriously are the great rabbis of the generation, who agree with me.

We have continued to subsidize an entire class of supposedly equal citizens with welfare, discounts, and the precious blood of our sons. Now that my countrymen declare, after all these years, that this generosity can no longer remain unlimited in time or number of beneficiaries, you cry foul and claim you should have an equal voice in the decision.

And why not? It affects me too.

Yaakov, you can take a plane over to the playing field any time you darn well decide to, and then you can vote. But you continue to vote with your feet.

BE"H I will vote when I get there. Right now, I'm voting with my blog. It's your perogative not to read it.

And when I see yeshiva bachurs who spend as many hours awake in study, and train an nth as hard as my son did in the Sayeret, I'll thank them. And if I ever see any of them "killing themselves in ohel haTorah" in the way that my son's companions--and friends--were killed in combat, when I see that their losses are as serious as the gunshot wounds and burns and fractured or lost limbs as his friends suffered, then maybe I will take them more seriously than a diligent jobnik in a rear-line position.

I'm not poo-pooing the role the army plays. It is not an easy role they have. I salute all that do it. I also salute those learn Torah all day and night. I encourage you to have your husband and son visit a Yeshiva where Torah can be heard all day and night. Their training is also very difficult. One is physical and the other is mental. Both are stressful. Both are needed. And both should be thanked.

 

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