Tuesday, August 02, 2011

Still More on Baba Elazar ZT"L

The murderer has no regrets (which seems to contradict previous reports) and considers himself Pinehas Ben Elazar who was zealous for G-d.

Update:  Kabbalists, surrounding Baba Elazar's fresh grave, issued a Pulsa deNura against the murderer.

Rav Eliezer Shlomo Schick blamed the murder on disrespect of rabbis, quoting Bava Metzia 84b (which I had quoted previously in regard to disrespecting rabbis).

Rav Amnon Yitzhak said that perhaps it was due to non-kosher songs and singers.  He said that the siman in Shulhan Aruch that has to do with the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash and not listening to music is Siman 560, which is also the gematria of the murderer (without the א in his last name).  He added that the death of Tzaddik atones if we act in the ways of the Tzaddik, and since Baba Elazar was careful with guarding his eyes, we too should be more careful in these matters.



The gematria of both recent murderers put together (אשר דהאן,לוי אהרן) is 863. This equals וימת אתו (and he killed him).  The phrase "וימת אתו" occurs only twice in Tanach.

The first was part of a fictional murder said by the woman from Tekoa.

Shemuel Bet 14:6:

וּלְשִׁפְחָתְךָ, שְׁנֵי בָנִים, וַיִּנָּצוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם בַּשָּׂדֶה, וְאֵין מַצִּיל בֵּינֵיהֶם; וַיַּכּוֹ הָאֶחָד אֶת-הָאֶחָד, וַיָּמֶת אֹתוֹ.
And thy handmaid had two sons, and they two strove together in the field, and there was none to part them, but the one smote the other, and killed him.

Leiby was Basadeh - in the field, far from home. There was a struggle, police say. There was no Matzil for Leiby to save him. וימת אתו.


The second was from the killing of Gedalia.

Yirmiya 41:2:

וַיָּקָם יִשְׁמָעֵאל בֶּן-נְתַנְיָה וַעֲשֶׂרֶת הָאֲנָשִׁים אֲשֶׁר-הָיוּ אִתּוֹ, וַיַּכּוּ אֶת-גְּדַלְיָהוּ בֶן-אֲחִיקָם בֶּן-שָׁפָן בַּחֶרֶב--וַיָּמֶת אֹתוֹ: אֲשֶׁר-הִפְקִיד מֶלֶךְ-בָּבֶל, בָּאָרֶץ.
Then arose Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and the ten men that were with him, and smote Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan with the sword, and slew him, whom the king of Babylon had made governor over the land.

The connection to Baba Elazar is obvious.

19 Comments:

At Tue Aug 02, 04:53:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The guy is mentaly ill ` ~ no excuse though. As for disrespect of rabbis I buy that . As for singing and guarding the eyes every human on this planet man woman and child is in some way afflicted . ~ by the low in society . Now in san fransisco to stair at a woman and have desire is a mitzvah because most men stare at good looking men and phantasize on them ~ like sodom !

 
At Tue Aug 02, 06:25:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

1. again meaningless numerology. please don't associate this drivel with the chelek of torah knows as gematria.

2. Wow true ahavas yisreol displayed by these so-called mekubalim. Instead of prayinf for the murder's mental well-being (as he's reportedly mentally unstable), they curse him to die.

When beis din kills a person who's chayiv misa it must be done with a very heavy heart, and it's done only to fulfill the "mitzvas hamelech", to prevent civil unrest. Shame on these frauds, they are less of jew than the murderer himself.

 
At Tue Aug 02, 06:45:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Anonymous 6:25,

1. Everyone in every generation used gematria for different purposes. The Baal Haturim, the Gra, the Ben Ish Hai, and even the niftar's great great grandfather - Ribbi Yaakov Abuhatzeira, to name a few. I have the right to make up a gematria just like they do. Do I not have a Helek in Torah?!

2. Re: what you said about the anonymous Mekubalim, you obviously didn't learn the lesson R' Schick was trying to teach. What a shame.

 
At Tue Aug 02, 06:57:00 PM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

The gematria of Amnon Yitzchak is 355, the same as for Pharaoh, perhaps because both want the Jews to have no fun?

 
At Tue Aug 02, 07:04:00 PM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"Baal Haturim"

The Baal HaTurim is not a good example, in my opinion, even if he is the most famous. All his gematriot were for things that were already known via midrashim, as I've demonstrated several times on my blog. They were not the primary means of deriving new facts.

Before even attempting to understand Baal HaTurim and gematria, it pays to read his hakdama:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=11839&st=&pgnum=4

He only mentions gematria in one sentence, four lines from the bottom:
וראיתי עוד לכתוב בתחילת סדר וסדר מעט פרפראות מגימטריאות ועטמי המסורת למהשיך הלב

That is not the same as deciding that Bava Eleazar was murdered as punishment for Jews liking music that R' Amnon Yitzchak dislikes. I think the Baal HaTurim would regard this as silly, illegitimate, and perhaps even offensive.

 
At Tue Aug 02, 07:29:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I have the right to make up a gematria just like they do."

No. Just as you have no "right" to "make up" chidush in torah. You have a right/obligation to try to logically understand the torah to the best of your ability. Imagination is not torah. The above mentioned, said their gematrias with an inspiration of ruach hakodesh. And you still need the "chochmah", parperos alone is nothing. It's the equivalent of a map with directions, but possibly/likely to nowhere. Would you call that torah? Is torah that hallow that it only lives in a one's imagination? You want your chelek in torah? work hard on a peshat in a pasuk/mishna/gemara. Speculation is not torah. Nice connections is not the word of god. Possibilities are not divines truths.

 
At Tue Aug 02, 07:35:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Self attributing to one's self a title of mekubal, does not make one a jew of respect. Cursing another jew, is not only not righteous, it's evil. Wishing ill upon the unstable, is heartless.

And these mekubalim have just excluded themselves from the klal of kol hatorah kula.

 
At Tue Aug 02, 08:05:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

Josh and anonymous,

I agree with you that Parpera'ot alone are nothing.

However, when there is basis to what we say based on other sources, we can say what we say. It's not out of thin air like Elanor Roosevelt and Josh's first comment.

I urge you to read some of the Ben Ish Hai's writings and R' Yaakov Abuhatzeira's writings which are malei vegadush gematriot.

Re: the mekubalim, do you know enough about this man that he's not a Rasha? Do you know enough about the mekubalim that they are not tzadikim? I cannot understand how you can make such an accusation while knowing very little about the case!

 
At Tue Aug 02, 08:34:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Anonymous said...

רצח בבא אלעזר = קונספירציה
----------
All I know is that it's been reported that dahan said many delusional things in the past weeks. I give him the benefit of doubt that he is unstable (this does not excuse his action, or speak anything about his free will). I know that these mekubalim have not met Mr. Dahan. I known that it's forbidden to do a pulsa denura on anyone but a goy who is a rasha and is being metz'ayre yidden. I know that Mr. Dahan is no longer in a position where he can hurt anyone.

Don't you see the irony, that after many have spoken about murder being distinctly un-jewish, this band of mekubalim collectively attempt to kill someone? Tell me, is this in line with the calls for bein adam lichavero that many have said this is a message for?

(had their names been published, and they would be people of note, I wouldn't be questioning them. and honestly, I find the entire story very difficult to believe.)

 
At Tue Aug 02, 09:36:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

To me, it seems to be a case of כל המרחם...

 
At Tue Aug 02, 11:08:00 PM 2011, Blogger Daniela said...

Yeah right, am i supposed to believe that mekubalim are cursing a now harmless jew with health problems and upon whom no one had compassion when he could not pay for the grocery shopping. During the three weeks no less.

 
At Wed Aug 03, 12:31:00 AM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

I admit not knowing how the Ben Ish Chai used gematria. But this is something that different people used in different ways. I suppose you have precedent for holding such is legitimate.

But on the other hand, that does not mean that Baal HaTurim would hold it is legitimate, or Ibn Ezra, or the Bach. (See what he says about the gematria of Tzitit, attributing this view to the Tur as well.) I can follow Ibn Ezra and others in thinking that when others engage in such gematriot, they are being silly and not engaging in Talmud Torah.

 
At Wed Aug 03, 12:17:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

I urge you to read the writings of those who use gematrias frequently so you will hopefully learn not to call such Torah "silly".

 
At Wed Aug 03, 01:44:00 PM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

Maybe i would, and maybe i won't.

But R' Amnon Yitzchak's use of it is exploitive, just as various organizations and folks with agendas used Leiby Klatzky's death to further their agendas.

To argue leshitascha... There is also a major difference between a tremendous talmid chacham and kabbalist, like the Gra, who intuits what direction to take in line with Torah values and thoughts, and a popular kiruv lecturer or random commenter on kikar shabbat.

Do you know who uses this sort of calculation to draw spurious conclusions? Schizophrenics and conspiracy theorists. And so, instead of looking to Gedolim for guidance, relative know-nothings empowered by gematria take their shtuyot and promote them to the level of Torah.

This is like John Nash in A Beuatiful Mind. Or, for instance, that the comet ELE-nin is named that hints to 9/11, and that it stands for Extinction Level Event.

Indeed, Rabbi Asher Dahan's assertion that he is a gilgul of Pinchas is on the same level of sanity of much of what I am seeing here. And I am pretty sure one can prove this gilgul-ship with enough effort. Except people aren't motivated to do so.

kol tuv,
josh

 
At Wed Aug 03, 02:41:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

To argue leshitascha... There is also a major difference between a tremendous talmid chacham and kabbalist, like the Gra, who intuits what direction to take in line with Torah values and thoughts, and a popular kiruv lecturer or random commenter on kikar shabbat.

Totally agree.

Do you know who uses this sort of calculation to draw spurious conclusions? Schizophrenics and conspiracy theorists. And so, instead of looking to Gedolim for guidance, relative know-nothings empowered by gematria take their shtuyot and promote them to the level of Torah.

Yes, you're right. But your total rejection of using gematria by non-Talmidei Hachamim is throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Indeed, Rabbi Asher Dahan's assertion that he is a gilgul of Pinchas is on the same level of sanity of much of what I am seeing here. And I am pretty sure one can prove this gilgul-ship with enough effort. Except people aren't motivated to do so.

This is totally out of line. They are not related in the slightest.

 
At Wed Aug 03, 02:58:00 PM 2011, Blogger joshwaxman said...

"They are not related in the slightest."

who and who? pinchas and r' asher dahan?

 
At Wed Aug 03, 03:05:00 PM 2011, Blogger yaak said...

LOL!

I think you know what I mean. :)

 
At Wed Aug 03, 10:25:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Shiloh said...

Josh, you are not far off with the gematria of Amnon and Pharoah. Both have what in common? One day we will all wake up.

Yaak, many more lemons = more lemonade. This is getting way out of hand and is far from the Torah you pretend to live by. Moshe sure would not understand nor recognise the practices of the goyim you have adopted in gematria. Shame it has become.

 
At Wed Aug 03, 10:54:00 PM 2011, Anonymous Shiloh said...

Yaak, my wife went last year to listen to R Amnon. At the end they did the usual questions and he immediatly picked her. I don't remember what she asked, but he gave a 'blessing'. In that he mentioned two things. You know those actually did come true in a sense. The total opposite. Ya, it's amazing.

I have good friends who watch this rabbi like a cult member. She thinks he is a prophet and get's so offended when someone say's different. But her husband is in a prison. He is so entrenched in following the dictates of this modern day pharaoh (in the realm of fences). Is so sad to watch them not live the Torah life but live a live of the erev rav in religious sense.

A few years ago we decided we could not take the behavior of the Children of Israel anymore and wanted to leave Israel. My wife has connections to rabbi Dovid of Nahariyah. So we had a freind take a note for us. He said for us to do this and that. I read it and no way was I going to do so. It was to go to a certain place in the states. I knew what was about to come there so we went to another place where it was the ONLY place in north America which survived the crash in the global meltdown.

Lesson here, I listen with a huge grain of salt and trust only God. And His only source we have and that's the Tanach.

 

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